Joe Daniels: Using the Point of View Canvas for Business Positioning

How to Get More of Nick Berry and tBOJ

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform and leave a review. Your feedback helps us bring you more valuable content.

Follow us:

• Nick on LinkedIn
• Nick on X
• tBOJ Podcast on X
• Redesigned.Business

The Business Owner's Journey Podcast host: Nick Berry
Production Company: FCG

[Image Gallery: American Entrepreneur Nick Berry]

Episode Transcript for: Joe Daniels: Using the Point of View Canvas for Business Positioning

01:33 Building the Point of View Canvas for Positioning

03:55 Identifying Your Ideal Client Profile

06:51 Defining the Core Problem for Business Growth

09:48 Blind Spots and Competitive Landscape

13:05 The Power of Decision Making in Positioning

15:47 Live Positioning Workshop and Client Engagement

24:32 Breaking the Hamster Wheel: Real Growth Challenges

27:26 Competitor Blind Spots in Positioning Strategy

29:53 Flaws in Common Coaching Methods for Service Businesses

34:13 The Duality Approach: Business Mechanics vs Leadership

41:05 Crafting a Unique Business Perspective

50:41 The Never-Ending Business Growth Journey

Joe Daniels (00:00)

And I think it's like kind of a false dichotomy and that like, you want to be both. Like if you're just better, you blend in. If you're just different, you're not valuable. But if you're differently better, then that's the important part. Like it's almost like, why is your difference better? Right, that's the key.

Nick Berry (00:29)

My guest is Joe Daniels. He's a strategist, positioning expert and trusted advisor to agencies, creators and solo business owners. And Joe puts his money where his mouth is. Instead of just talking shop, we put Joe to the test and had him workshopping my business positioning live, unscripted using his four pillar methodology. So it's a real time deep dive with all the tough questions, uncomfortable decisions and candid course corrections that

Come along with that. Expect to learn how you can clarify your niche by actually doing the work. What happens when you separate your identity from your business? How to spot the blind spots that are killing your growth? His take on what truly makes a point of view unique? The worst and the best ways to position yourself against your competitors? How to handle the uncomfortable choices most founders avoid? Whether relentless focus really pays off? What it's like to get called out live?

on your own assumptions, how Joe learned to uncover clients' it factors, and the real value of working with someone who won't let you dodge the hard questions. It's a glimpse of the mind and methodology of Joe Daniels. Let's jump in.

Joe Daniels (01:33)

my whole thing is about essentially finding that unique point of view or perspective.

on your industry or category or whatever you want to call it, the market that you're in. Which it does two things like a it grabs the attention of prospects because it's different, you're saying a different thing to what everyone else in the world is saying. And you know, as you know, there's loads of loads of noise out there. Attention is one of the biggest things you need to get right now. And so it's so

way to do that isn't by saying the same thing more or louder, it's by saying a different thing entirely and so having that unique perspective allows you to do that, but the other thing it does is actually kind of almost render the competition obsolete if you do it right, it's kind of almost being like actually like if you've got this specific problem the current solution isn't working, just doesn't it for whatever reason it's not effective, my solution is effective because of this reason

And if you can make that argument in a compelling way, it doesn't just differentiate you from the competition. It almost puts you in a different box altogether. It's almost like, actually now you're really the only person that can solve that problem for those specific people. And that's a really powerful thing. If you can get that right, it's not easy to get right, it's a really powerful thing if you can. And so what I did was, I've learned this, I've realized that this is a thing that...

people need in very crowded markets at least. And I helped agencies at Treacle develop theirs as part of the work we did. And when I left, I started working with startups and also more recently I've started working with, you know, so I'm going to say solopreneur. I hate the word, you know, so solo business owners, freelancers, consultants, whatever you.

Nick Berry (03:26)

creator businesses.

Joe Daniels (03:27)

Yeah, yeah, anyone that's like a one person operation as well, especially if they're, you know, there's a lot of freelancers who are in the most crowded markets, you know, if you take like, don't know, a copywriter, well, there's probably too many of them realistically, right? So like, I think it's really important to stand out there. And what I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, too many business coaches. All with podcasts as well.

Nick Berry (03:45)

business coach.

Joe Daniels (03:54)

It's, yeah, so I think my process, it came about through observation and through working with clients over and over, by solving the same problem over and over, each iteration kind of solidified my own process. It wasn't like I just dreamt it up out of nowhere. It was based on A, stuff that's actually theoretically been shown to be a good thing and B,

doing it myself, tweaking things here and there and kind of adjusting my process slightly each time. And I think it's probably never going to be finished. Realistically, I think that's the other interesting thing here is that my methodology is always going to be tweaked as times change, as opinions change, as my opinion changes, right? But the core principles of it are probably the same throughout. And so what I have now is a point of view canvas. And there are...

essentially four pillars to this canvas. The first one is all about your ICP. So let's define the type of business that you're wanting to work with and the person at that business, because obviously a B2B is kind of a two-pronged approach in terms of who that is. That's really the first step, because actually the more specific you can get with that, the stronger the rest of it's going to be.

You don't have to necessarily niche down by like, I'm doing it for sports brands or something like that. It doesn't have to be an industry. You could kind of just niche down by other things like it could be size or location. could be maturity in terms of like, you know, like, or maybe they're just about ready to sell the business. Right. And that's that in itself is already quite a small subsection. But the other thing that I think is really interesting to niche down around, and this is the second pillar, is like a problem that they have.

And I think what's really interesting about doing that is that if I say, you know, I am a consultant and I work with startups to help them with their marketing. Well, yes, I'm niche down, but there's still a lot of others doing the same thing. Right. And, and so yes, it's an exactly, there's got to be something else that you need to do deeper, not to mention the fact that sometimes people pick a niche.

Nick Berry (06:11)

There's got to be some other defining characteristic that you're at.

Joe Daniels (06:22)

of an industry for no real reason. So like I've had clients where they'll be like, you know, we work just with food brands. And when I'm like, but why just food brands? Like, what is it about what you do that doesn't apply to anyone else? They don't have an answer for that, right? It's like, well, actually I could do it for any of those. So then the food brands is just a thing that you've decided to target people from a marketing perspective, but from a positioning perspective, there's no validation there. And so...

When you focus in on a problem instead, you become obsessed with solving that one problem and anyone who has that problem then becomes a valid client for you. so

Nick Berry (07:00)

And those are like,

that's the material characteristics. Like it's, it's not fucking demographic. It's not there. You know, at 65 to set that drives me insane. Like internally we, so we try to talk about it in terms of when you have your ICP and it does include a lot of all those other attributes, but knowing like what we call the marriage material, like there are a few attributes about that, that ICP.

Joe Daniels (07:07)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Nick Berry (07:30)

that separate the one you married from the ones that you dated for a long time, right? And if you don't know the difference in the marriage material characteristics and the others, you pick dog food brands or whatever it was. You pick the wrong attribute to check.

Joe Daniels (07:35)

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

And I think, I think part of that also comes down to the, the I in ICP, right? The ideal part. So I think a lot of people forget that and think that they have to cover this broad spectrum because it's like, but I could work with them and I could work with them. And it's like, yeah, you can, but ideally like he's, he's like the dream client. Like when you start thinking about that, I think it helps kind of just harness that thinking and hone it a bit more. But, ⁓

Nick Berry (08:08)

Yeah.

Joe Daniels (08:17)

But yeah, so I guess the second pillar that I'm talking about here is this problem, is essentially that the two parts of this are like, they're trying to achieve something. I mean, they're trying to achieve lots of things, but your job is to pick one of these things. But something's getting in their way. There's an obstacle in their way. Something's stopping them from achieving it currently. And that is the problem that you're going to focus on. You're basically identifying, this is what they're trying to achieve. Cool.

But why can't they achieve it? That's really the key question, because if you can solve that, and then you are suddenly really valuable to them as a partner or whatever, as a consultant. So that's the second pillar. The third pillar is what I call the blind spot. And this is where we start thinking about it from a competitive standpoint. And so what we have is, A, let's identify who your main primary competitor is. And

It's important to note that that isn't necessarily someone else like you. It might be if you're in a crowded market, it probably is. Sometimes it's like an old way of doing things. So, you know, like if you're tech company, it might be that you're replacing pen and paper, right? Like in which case that's, that's actually the competitor at the moment. So it requires a bit of digging down. You know, it might be for a lot of freelancers, the competition is in-house. It might be that actually that's, that's the main competitor here is that they're

fine doing it in-house and your job is gonna have to be well why why should you pick me over in-house? Yes yeah yeah yeah what's what's like almost like their current way of trying to solve that problem and what you do is you identify kind of what I like to do is kind of put a name to this approach to solving a problem and I'll get onto the naming thing you know later on because there's a lot to unpack there but but like the

Nick Berry (09:48)

So it's like alternative methods, other ways other than the way you do it. Yeah.

Joe Daniels (10:11)

The idea is that you identify a way of solving that problem rather than just calling out specific competitors. So you wouldn't, I wouldn't, if I was in competition with you, I wouldn't go, ⁓ well, know, this guy, Nick, he's really bad because he does this. What I would do is I would identify a common thing that you do and other business coaches do and say, is called, I'll call it this, I don't know it's called. I don't know, I can't think of an example.

But know, I give it a name and I'll say, that's the concepts. Yeah, of course. Yeah. That's the concepts that I then fight against. And so I'm fighting against you indirectly, but really I'm saying this is an industry problem that these guys have. And I'm on the outside going, now this isn't the right way to do it. And basically you say, okay, well, why doesn't this approach work? What's, what's, cause if it does work, they don't have the problem in the first place. Right. So for some reason, this current approach to solving it isn't enough. It's not doing the job.

Nick Berry (10:40)

Yeah, Guru-itis. Yeah.

Joe Daniels (11:08)

So have to figure out, well, why is that the case? And then once you've done that, the final and fourth pillar is the opportunity one. And that's all about you, which is a, okay, well, here's my approach instead. This is what I do instead of this old approach that I've identified. Here's why it's different. Here's the main point of difference. And more importantly, here's why that difference works. And that's the really important bit here is like,

it's all well and good saying, you know, I do things differently, but it also has to be, it's like that whole better versus different thing. And I think it's like kind of a false dichotomy and that like, you want to be both. Like if you're just better, you blend in. If you're just different, you're not valuable. But if you're differently better, then that's the important part. Like it's almost like, why is your difference better? Right, that's the key. So yeah, that's the four.

kind of pillars of my approach is to basically figure out what is the answer to each of those things and combine them all together and that's then the sort of point of view that you're taking to the market.

Nick Berry (12:14)

Okay. And so like what's there's what we're doing here for, so we could try to demonstrate that as much as possible through a podcast episode, but like how, with a typical client engagement for you, I'm sure it looks much different and you're able to do like it's more in depth. So you want to like give us a little bit of a baseline for what we're about to see.

Joe Daniels (12:25)

Yep.

Yeah, sure. I mean, normally this whole happens in maybe a two to three hour workshop. It's quite intense. It's a lot of thinking on the client's part. And I think what's really interesting is when I first started doing this, when I was back at Treacle, I was very much like, I'll just come in and be the savior. I mean, I'll have the answers, blah, blah, and have that kind of hero complex thing going on.

And as I have matured as a consultant and got older and wiser, I've been actually though, it's not on me to have the answer because I don't know your business or your world as much as you do. What I've found routinely is the answer is already in your head and probably there's too many answers in your head. What I can do with my structure and questioning and so on and my approach is to basically force you to prioritize and pick one of these.

through lines and connect those thoughts together in a way that then makes sense to everyone else. Because if it's only, if the point of view only exists in your head, it doesn't really count for anything, right? So like it has to be explainable outwardly. And that's really, that's really the value I bring is almost like, call it like founder therapy, where like I basically just basically just help them get out of your head. And I'm sure it's similar to you with the work you do, but

Nick Berry (13:51)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So I really like hearing you say, you know, I've forced people to choose because the answer is already in there. Right. But what typically from my experience is no one has forced them to make the choice, the hard choice. Right. It's we'll have the conversation and we'll bang around like, well, it could be this for this reason or that for this reason. And, and then just kind of let it go because maybe it's uncomfortable to say, look, Joe, I know it's tough. That's the job.

Joe Daniels (14:09)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nick Berry (14:23)

You got to choose A or B and one of those is better than the other for some reason.

Joe Daniels (14:25)

Yep.

I think what's nice about the canvas that I have is if you hedge your bets in the first couple of boxes of it you're suddenly going to find the next box really hard because the idea is that essentially the focus narrows as we go through and if you if you're if you've not narrowed down sufficiently as you go through

it gets really hard to answer these questions and that does sometimes happen and as a result often they are like people almost figure it out for themselves they kind of see why that's hard and go ⁓ this is difficult because i didn't make a decision back there and it's like yeah it's like all right cool let's go back and make that decision like yeah okay cool yeah no you don't know not yet anyway

Nick Berry (15:10)

Did I do that? I bet I did.

Joe Daniels (15:18)

So yeah, so I think, you know, like I say, normally it's a bit longer in terms of the workshop. It might sometimes even be a couple of sessions, just because I think sometimes people need that space and time to mull it over and think about things. So I think in the interest of this, maybe like a condensed version, I think would be best. And so we can kind of work almost like quickly work through all of it to a certain extent. And it might be that you have to make snap decisions that normally you wouldn't, but like, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe we'll maybe we'll invent a whole new way of approaching this, which is like the

the five minute point of view canvas. Yeah, and basically we'll go through it all to get a flavor of the kind of discussions that happen. I think it's gonna just be a condensed sort of sped up, but it's almost like watching it on fast forward, I think is what it's gonna be like. Cool, all right, well.

Nick Berry (16:04)

Okay, yeah, that sounds great.

Yeah, so for context

sake, we've worked on this project, I mean, a little bit, but over the last month, exchange a little bit of information. Like I gave Joe kind of the intake information and so he could start putting his thoughts together so we could show up here and try to like workshop our way through the rest of this. So the idea is to demonstrate like how he works his magic. We're gonna pull back the curtain on his sorcery.

Joe Daniels (16:37)

So here's the canvas, here's the four pillars. Pillars is probably the wrong word because they're horizontal, but here's the four pillars that I mentioned, ICP, problem, blind spot, opportunity. Each of these boxes is essentially a kind of a question and answer sort of thing that we need to work through. So starting with the ICP, because I think this is the one you're probably clearest on at the moment, it's safe to say.

in the stuff that you sent over beforehand, I kind of got down here, B2B service, B2B creator businesses. Does that feel, is that generally the right sort of area for you? That's cool. And obviously in your case, the person is going to be the founder or owner of those businesses, right? Like that's, that's so to say. So, okay, well was easy. So yeah. Well that, yeah, that's, that's, this is funny because obviously in your case, you're very clear on that, which.

Nick Berry (17:11)

Yeah. Yep.

It took me a long time to get there.

Joe Daniels (17:31)

which essentially makes the hardest part done. With clients, often this is the big sticking point, right? This is, as we discussed earlier, this is the biggest decision to make is where you want to focus in terms of the type of business or the person. You know, do you want to specialize in a certain industry? Do you not want to? Why should you? Why shouldn't you? Like that could sometimes be a whole session in itself, right? And so the fact that you've already done that is yoga.

Nick Berry (17:57)

So the biggest,

I think for me, what's made it easier for me to get there and I see this happen all the time. It's letting go of this belief that or assumption that just because I'm focused on them doesn't mean that I will not work with anyone outside of that. Like it doesn't imply anything about anybody outside of that. It's just saying this is what I'm focused on.

Joe Daniels (18:06)

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

there's a really weird kind of paradox that happens when you kind of niche down, I've found both in my own experience and with clients experiences, is that it often feels that, so when you niche down, obviously it means that your marketing, your messaging, everything can become a lot more resonant with those people. But what's funny is because your messaging becomes so strong, even people outside of that target client bracket,

I won over by it. They kind of see it and go, ⁓ yeah, this is really cool. I want to work with them. Even if it's not speaking to them directly, the fact that it's speaking to someone for some reason makes people that don't fit the bracket like it as well. And I, and it's, it's a weird paradox. think that like the more you narrow down like that, the more opportunities from outside of the niche happen, right? Like it's, it's, it's.

Nick Berry (19:10)

Yeah, I can speak to it.

When I reached out to

Roland, I knew he, at that point I realized like that he was focused on agencies. I'm not an agency. I was like, I don't care. I want to talk to you. Like, cause I like the way that you're doing what you're doing.

Joe Daniels (19:21)

huh. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, we, mean, a good story at Treacle about this was that obviously, you know, we were agency focused. And I remember one time an architect came to us, needing our help. we took it on. It quickly transpired we probably shouldn't have taken it on because we didn't know anything about architecture. But like the point is, they looked at us and came to us and were like, we know you work just with agencies, but could you work with us as an architect?

there was no nothing remotely related to what we were talking about. Do know what mean? But like they obviously saw something in our messaging and positioning and went, that's what we need for ourselves. So, so yeah, it definitely does happen. And so I think you're right that like, if you can get it, it is a fear, right? That's all it's, it's a risk averse thing to be like, actually, I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket here. I don't want to, I don't want to narrow my focus too much, but, all of the...

Nick Berry (20:04)

Yep.

Joe Daniels (20:22)

I've never heard it not work for someone, do know what mean? Like it seems like every time someone does that and narrows down, it works. so, yeah, like, yeah, it, sometimes the kind of common advice and common wisdom is there for a reason, right? Like it's because it works. So yeah, you know, I get it. It's a fair thing. I've had it myself in my own business. Like I haven't been on the other side. I understand it. I think it is just one of those things you kind of.

Nick Berry (20:28)

Yep. If it didn't work, you didn't do it right.

Mm-hmm.

Joe Daniels (20:51)

have to get over if you want to do this. Or not, and that's fine, don't do it. That's also fine. So yeah, so your ICP is really clear, which is really good. It's a good start. In terms of the problem, so I think you're quite clear on what they're trying to achieve. And so the thing that I pulled out from the stuff you sent over was this kind of idea of figuring out how to scale. That's what they're trying to do.

Nick Berry (20:55)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Daniels (21:21)

I suppose I'm curious as to why they aren't able to figure that out in the first place.

Nick Berry (21:28)

Probably not totally understanding what scale is. So there's probably confusion between growth and scale, like I guess technically what that means. I think there are also like scales, not necessarily a simple thing to occur. And when, you consume a lot of information,

Joe Daniels (21:36)

Mmm.

Nick Berry (21:57)

online, especially like social media, then you tend to be told that it is a simple thing. you know, so they're, they're fed, they, they get a lot of information that's misdiagnosing or

Joe Daniels (22:15)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Berry (22:15)

oversimplifying.

I think a lot of businesses, especially when you get into the creator businesses, services businesses, service businesses less so, but it still exists, but creator businesses, they are maybe very skilled at this subject matter or the profession, but they don't have the business background or knowledge. so that is a, you know, don't have to have an MBA to...

scale a business or run a good business period. However, there are like, there's some fundamental knowledge that you have some things that have to be done or accounted for, and you have to be aware of them and know of them to, to do to account for them. lack in that experience or knowledge.

Joe Daniels (23:06)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's an I mean, it's interesting. It almost feels like there comes a point where either, you know, like if we're talking specifically about the creators, because I do think it's probably more in line with them. They like you say, they almost start because they're really good at their particular skill and special specialism. And.

never learn the business side of it, right? They almost see it as it's, they're just doing their thing that they like. And I guess there must come a point in every kind of creators maturity levels where they either make, they make the choice to stay there in terms of like, I'm just going to be really good at copywriting, right? And that's cool. That's fine. You can make a decent living from that. Or do you want it to become

Nick Berry (23:36)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Daniels (23:55)

a business sort of thing, right? That's the difference, isn't it? In terms of like, at that point, it kind of grows bigger than you. It's kind of like, actually, at this point, yes, it could still be a one person thing, but like, you're treating it as a separate entity to yourself, right? Like, it's almost like it's not, it's not just you anymore. It's now a fully fledged thing on its own. And that's really where... Yes. Yeah.

Nick Berry (23:57)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

They're going from treating it, looking at it like a job, even if they're independent, it really is a job to,

this is gonna be a business.

Joe Daniels (24:23)

Yeah, no that's really cool. I mean do you think that's the biggest thing that's holding people back then out of all of this is that lack of the knowledge and the sort of business background?

Nick Berry (24:32)

Well, I guess we could apply that more broadly and say yes. They have not crossed the threshold that they're trying to cross with growth or scale before. So even if they do kind of have some understanding of business that, mean, some of these people have been in business for a long time, but they've just been at this level and never been able to crack the code.

Joe Daniels (24:54)

Mm.

Nick Berry (25:00)

Right. It's like they've been on a hamster wheel all since the beginning and they can sustain the hamster wheel, but you can only run so fast. And what they're envisioning is they see the potential for so much more, but they can't run faster. They're going to have to go from hamster wheel to like 10 speed bike. And they've never done it. They don't know how to do it. So, ⁓ I guess if you want to look at it like,

Joe Daniels (25:10)

Mm-hmm

Okay, yep.

Nick Berry (25:31)

lacking that experience, their knowledge, then yeah, that is definitely the biggest. Yes.

Joe Daniels (25:39)

No, it's a cool analogy. I think what this talks to in a way, if we sort of look at it bit of a hierarchy, is that they're kind of stuck on this hamster wheel, partly because they lack that knowledge. But I think like you're saying, there's almost like a... At the moment, they just have to keep treading water, right, to mix analogies here.

Nick Berry (25:59)

And sometimes the

situation is not terrible, right? Like they may have what you'd call a business, know, technically it's a business. It's a, know, most characteristics look like it's a job, except they probably make a little bit more money, but they work a little bit more. But it is not going to break through that ceiling because you cannot run any faster than the fastest you can run.

Joe Daniels (26:03)

Yes, yeah, yeah,

Mm-hmm.

Nick Berry (26:27)

And that's what they've been doing. And they can keep doing it, but it's not gonna realize the potential that they envision.

Joe Daniels (26:27)

Yep. So it's.

It's actually less about the... It's almost like they feel like the way forward is to run faster. And what you're saying is actually you need to replace the wheel entirely, right? To carry on this analogy. It's like actually you need to upgrade the business that you're in rather than just do the same business more. That's the difference, right?

Nick Berry (26:49)

Yes.

Yep. It's

all of those people that are like, you know, the grind mentality and their response to things is typically like, I'll just need to, I'll do it. I'll go harder. Like you can't, that, doesn't scale, right? That, that's what got you to here and kudos, great job. But like, if you envision like actually scale, ⁓ you're going to kill yourself if you try to do grind.

Joe Daniels (27:05)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, is the like, there are ultimately limits to that, right? And I suppose that's, that's why you need to change the entire way you work rather than just working harder. So, okay, that's really interesting. I think it'd be good to move on and talk a bit about the blind spot here. So as I mentioned earlier, when I say competitors, it's not always

Nick Berry (27:37)

That's it.

Joe Daniels (27:53)

It's not always a competitor directly. It's kind of a different, the current way they're trying to solve this.

Do you think that...

Do you think it's more likely that the kind of clients that you're going to try and attract will be looking at other coaches like yourself or not?

Okay. So in that case.

Nick Berry (28:16)

Yep. Even if they're

not in the awareness, haven't reached that stage of awareness yet, like they're open to it if they're exposed to the right information. Like it clicks with them pretty quickly.

Joe Daniels (28:27)

So chances are they're going to be comparing you to other people that do similar things. Is that right?

Nick Berry (28:35)

Yes.

Joe Daniels (28:36)

So like, they're,

you know, ultimately, like, if they're trying to figure out how to scale.

So, so yeah, here's the interesting thing. They're trying to figure out how to scale. They probably don't know why they can't. And what they're looking for is guidance as to why they can't. Your approach is going to be based around this fact that, it's cause you're stuck on this, obviously you don't need to use the phrase stuck on the hamster wheel, but like that you're saying you're sort of stuck going around in circles. What you need to do is, is this and sort of go through this process where we can help upgrade your, your wheel, so to speak.

Nick Berry (29:10)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Daniels (29:11)

And so the key is that at this point, they don't know that that's the solution yet. So when they're figuring out how to scale, they're going to be looking at yourself. They might be looking at other business coaches who also are going to help them figure out how to scale or at least claim to. Right. So I think that means that your competitors in this case are going to actually be direct competitors, right? They're going to be other business coaches. Is that fair to say? Like, and

Nick Berry (29:35)

Mm-hmm. Yep, it is.

Joe Daniels (29:41)

In that case, generally speaking, and it's fine to generalize here, how do these other business coaches tend to approach this? How do they tend to help or try to help?

Nick Berry (29:53)

Are we?

we looking for like the flawed perspective?

Joe Daniels (30:01)

At

this point, anything that they do, and then I think we can try to pick holes in it afterwards.

Nick Berry (30:07)

Okay,

so like one-on-one engagement and.

Well, they're probably two separate groups. are those who do try to solve through one-on-one engagements and those who try to push you into groups. And let's see.

Joe Daniels (30:25)

Yep.

Do you

do both of those things or do you focus on one?

Nick Berry (30:34)

I focus on one currently. I recommend both.

So, deliver one, but I would tell clients, everybody should be in, you need to have a one-on-one coach. You need to be a part of a big community, at least one. And you need to be part of a small, like a peer advisory board or mastermind group. Yeah. So if I don't deliver one of those things, then we just figure out, there are options out there. We figure out which direction for them to go.

Joe Daniels (30:40)

What does that mean?

Okay, interesting, yeah.

Okay. And but you're saying that, you know, at some point in the future, you might be offering more than just one to one engagements, is that what you're saying? Okay, cool. So, okay, so if we take one of these, each of these at a time, with the one to one engagements, so in terms of like the approach then, like what, if you think about the way you approach the work,

Nick Berry (31:13)

Yeah. Yeah, I will be doing groups.

Joe Daniels (31:32)

And you don't need to tell me what that is yet because we'll get to that. But like you obviously have a philosophy behind what you do. And it's probably based around this stuck on the hamster wheel idea that we've mentioned already. What do you think? And you might be partly guesswork this because you're not going to know other coaches methods as much as your own, but like, what do other coaches tend to do in terms of their philosophy and approach?

Nick Berry (31:37)

Mm-hmm.

So usually they're going to be kind of have one thing. So they may have a method like a strategic planning method like EOS or maybe they don't and they are kind of just sharing best practices, knowledge, skills. And it's more on like, it's a very superficial type of solution, solutioning. It's not,

Joe Daniels (32:08)

Yeah.

Nick Berry (32:26)

It's not transformational. It's not developmental. It's like band aids. Then...

Joe Daniels (32:33)

Yeah, okay.

That's quite interesting as a weakness though, like you saying it's almost like, what did you call it? Did you say surface level?

Nick Berry (32:44)

yeah, they're

solving surface, like surface level things. ⁓ it's not, they're not solving long-term, like they're not creating a transformation. It's going to like sustain. So basically it's like giving you a little turbo boost on your hamster wheel. ⁓ but it's artificial. Well, I shouldn't say that.

Joe Daniels (33:02)

Alright, yeah.

can't

wait to see your new website full of hamsters.

Yeah, okay, surface level, not a sustained transformation. I'm going to turbo turbo boost hamster.

Nick Berry (33:12)

Amen.

Yeah, it's not it's not transformational.

Joe Daniels (33:20)

Yeah, cool. Okay.

Nick Berry (33:21)

Yeah, it's lacking,

you know, so for example, you know, if somebody is using a strategic planning methodology, that's great. Like what I use something similar to that as a part of what I do. So I guess like my comparison to the these other solutions is like as my solution as the

the basis, right? I think you've got to have an operating system. I think you've got to have leadership development. I think there are components that have to be a part of this. those others are missing components of that for it to be like transformational change. We're talking about the scaling of business.

for someone who hasn't done that before. So to accomplish that goal, you have to scale the business, but you have to become a different business owner too. So we're not just like coming, I can't just come in and say, here's a different system. You got it now. Like you're going to have to learn to, to be the leader of that business that you're trying to build at the same time. So.

Joe Daniels (34:23)

Mmm.

Nick Berry (34:41)

to if we neglect the business or the business owner, we're not really gonna create like a sustainable solution or outcome.

Joe Daniels (34:53)

Yeah, I think there's something quite interesting in that it kind of goes back to what we said before about that kind of there comes that tipping point where it's either carry on in your own sort of, in your hamster wheels, I'll just be or see it as a business that you're a leader of. But it's not you, it's kind of extricating yourself from the business and seeing it as to set you there's you and there's your business, not there's you and your business in kind of one merged thing. It's kind of actually it's

it's healthier from a growth perspective to see them as separate and to separate them out and be like, there's you, there's your business. If you work on the business rather than just on yourself, that's where the results come from. Almost it's almost like actually you need to fix the business rather than just fix yourself. Like that's the kind of.

Nick Berry (35:42)

Well,

they both need fixing. The business is probably more symptomatic. If we really wanted to get deep into it, all problems are leadership problems. So it comes back to the problem with the situation is you've created it. So let's fix what you don't know how to do, and then you can go and fix the business. But that's really like,

Joe Daniels (35:45)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Nick Berry (36:12)

you know, when they come to you and they want to talk about scaling a business, it'd be really hard to divert their attention to that. If we...

Joe Daniels (36:22)

But that's the right approach as far as you're concerned though, right? Is it?

Nick Berry (36:26)

I think it's the right approach is to come in and kind of diagnose and see between the two entities, like where do we start? Because there are going to be issues with both that have to be addressed. It's like there's a leadership development track for the individual, and then there's like a business growth track for the organization. I think they would...

Joe Daniels (36:37)

Mmm.

If you had to, yeah, sorry, go.

Nick Berry (36:54)

come in thinking that it's gonna be like, it's really about this, the business, the mechanics stuff. What do we need to fix under the hood here to get this thing to sort of go as fast as I think it should go? That's fine. We can do that. That's kind of, could be like giving turbo to your hamster wheel and you're gonna be back shortly. What we can also, what we should do to solve this correctly is address both and figure out like,

Joe Daniels (37:03)

Mmm.

Yep.

Nick Berry (37:24)

The business needs this to improve. Here's the bottleneck. And you are trying to go from where you're at to here as a leader. So we need a plan for you to be moving in that direction too. Because you, the leader now can't run the business. It can't lead the business that you are trying to create.

Joe Daniels (37:44)

Yes. Okay. I see. Yeah. Yeah. So actually what we're really saying is in this blind spot section, a lot of coaches actually, when we're talking about, you know, the surface level, not transformational turbo boost in the hamster wheel, it's because they're focusing more on the kind of business mechanics than the actual person as well. And you're saying that you need, yes, you should definitely fix the business mechanics.

Nick Berry (38:08)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Daniels (38:12)

but if you're not also addressing the individual that's going to lead that business, it doesn't matter is what you're saying, like they'll just end up falling into the same trap as they were in before. Okay, well that's really interesting because what we're almost saying is like...

Nick Berry (38:24)

Yes.

Joe Daniels (38:28)

your approach focus, your, your, I mean, I don't have a cool term for it, but, like, your approach is almost like, it's, I'm just, thing that comes to mind is that whole kind of like separation of like mind and body or whatever it is that it happens in philosophy. don't know, duality, that's what I'm talking about, is like that kind of duality model of, you know, like,

Nick Berry (38:46)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Daniels (38:50)

instead of a singular focus and seeing you and your business as one thing, which is what most coaches do and just kind of tinker around the edges, you're saying, look, actually, I'm going to split you up into you and your business. And we're going to work on both of those parts in tandem. Because if you just fix one, then it doesn't work. need to kind of fix. But it's almost like swapping the hamster wheel for a bicycle, right? Because now you've got two wheels. Now you've got you've got

Nick Berry (39:12)

Yeah, yes it is. And really you can't

even diagnose one as well without considering the other. you know, when you get into solutioning, the problems, the priorities at the moment might be 90 % in one entity or the other at the moment. But like this is a process, right? There's a journey to it. So that's going to evolve.

Joe Daniels (39:24)

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah, no, I like that. Like, I think.

I think there's something about separating the kind of individual from the business and seeing them as two things. I'm going to call it a duality approach for now, but it doesn't have to be called that. But like, think, I think that's a really interesting perspective here. And I know we've, we've obviously rushed through this for the purposes of the podcast and normally we delve into it a lot more and kind of start.

sense checking it right and picking it apart a bit as well but I think the seeds are here which is this idea of like where most coaches have purely focused on fixing the business you're there to fix both the business and the leader the individual the founder because you need because otherwise you just it's not going to be a long-term impact it's just going to be a sort of short-term boost

And that's it really. Cool. There we go. Well, I'll stop sharing for now so we can sort of go back into conversation mode. Yeah. So look, I think to give some extra context around this, normally what would happen in an engagement of a client is that like we would properly solid start to solidify that.

Nick Berry (40:41)

That's it. You said it.

Joe Daniels (41:05)

of come up with some language in around it, so the naming thing that I was going to mention earlier, this is why that comes in as being quite an important thing because... so this is something that like in the kind of world of category design and category creation, which I definitely recommend reading about if you're interested in this point of view stuff, it was a big inspiration for how I think about it, they talk about this thing called language-ing which is which is a really it's not a nice word but you know fine and and their whole idea is

when you come up with a kind of problem or like incorrect solution the old way and you come up with your new way you should name them in a way with like a two or three word phrase that succinctly captures here's what's wrong here's the new way to do it and it just kind of gives you ownership of it like it doesn't you know technically own it and you never will and you shouldn't own it but like it it gives you a kind of

that sticks in people's minds and see like once upon a time I came up with category conformity to describe this idea of when you're in a crowded category everyone starts to sound the same right they start to conform I've had prospects say that phrase to me sometimes I think not realizing I made it up and they're kind of like yeah it's this kind of like category conformity yeah well yeah that's my phrase I'd say

but it's a really good sign that like it resonates with them. it's, it's a, that's the memorable takeaway when they register. So generally speaking, we don't have to do that now, obviously, but like generally speaking, that would kind of be the next step is to sort of like, okay, if this is what we're going with, what do we call it? And, know, I came up with duality approach. I'm not saying that's the one, but like that's, that's the thinking that I was starting to move towards is actually, what do we call your, your philosophy here? What do we call that? What do we call the opposite of that?

Nick Berry (42:33)

Forget it.

Joe Daniels (42:58)

in a way that will stick in people's heads a bit more and give you that kind of ownership. And then in terms of the process, what I would recommend doing is kind of writing it up in a way that you can make sense that it kind of just makes sense to you. I like to sort of almost liken it to a bit of a manifesto, and it doesn't it doesn't need to be like a hard hitting like come and join the cause manifesto, even if it's just a one paragraph version of what we've just said that kind of outlines the points and the thinking.

And that's almost like a little elevator pitch for your point of view. And then what I would do is I would start planting the seeds of that in content on LinkedIn, for example, or speaking with potential clients or existing clients and just kind of running it, not running it by them in the sense of like, Hey, can I run this by you? I'll get some feedback, but just kind of slipping it into the conversation, seeing the kind of reaction it gets and see how it lands. And that's a way to kind of at least start validating it.

Nick Berry (43:49)

See how it lands.

Joe Daniels (43:56)

⁓ I'm a big believer that, that to a certain extent, if everyone kind of agrees with it instantly, then you may be just stating the obvious and it's maybe not that interesting a point of view. But if it makes people kind of just go, huh, yeah, I didn't think I've never thought of that. That's the kind of responses that kind of like a positive curiosity around it. If they can, if they give you that, then you know that you're kind of onto a winner here. It's like, I hadn't, I hadn't seen it that way. That's what you want. Cause you want to really change their perspective of the problem you want to get.

I've never thought of that. That's what you kind of look for. And if all the signs are there and it feels like that's the right way, then I think at that point, that's great. It's just kind of a matter of developing it further through content, putting some version of it on your website and communicating it through there, whatever your sales marketing channels are. Obviously that varies from person to person. But yeah, generally once you kind of get that point of view,

Your job is to just hammer it home as much as you can, right? And like, and, ⁓ I think a big part of the value I provide afterwards, after coming up with the original stuff, he's kind of sticking around and being a sounding board for the kind of content around it. ⁓ you know, mapping the content pillars and stuff out from there. Like, what do we talk about? How do we talk about it? But also kind of to go back almost to the start of this, where we were talking about how

there's a like, you know, most founders have commitment issues when it comes to this kind of thing and they don't want to, they don't want to put all their eggs in one basket. It's really important to do that once you've got your point of view, because if you start just drifting away from it and saying loads of other things, your point of view just gets lost in your own noise. And it's like, what's the point? So like, there's an accountability angle, I think that, you know, someone like myself or even you would provide, right? Like that's, I'm sure it's the same with you and your clients is part of a big part of it is like,

holding them accountable for what the decisions they make. And that's something really important.

Nick Berry (45:51)

I think the major,

major difference there is like having the eye to be able to catch when the drift is more subtle. If it's like completely overlooking it or getting offline and it's obvious, you know, I'm there for that, having someone and I'm probably speaking from my own perspective too. It's like, so I've kind of gotten over this obstacle. think of, I'm not, I know that setting a precise target

Joe Daniels (45:59)

Yeah,

Nick Berry (46:20)

is not implying that I will not work with anyone else. I'm not thinking about that. But then the next challenge that I run into is as I work through this, kind of separating the forest from the trees. So one of the things that you were doing there in that conversation that was really helpful was I felt like you kind of course corrected me a few times where maybe nudging me back like toward

Joe Daniels (46:25)

Sure, yeah. Yeah.

Nick Berry (46:50)

was relevant or what you felt like was the epicenter of the topic. And if someone's not there to do that, you you can unintentionally continue to just creep over and over. And before you know it, I've written the same shit that I've written, ⁓ any time, you know?

Joe Daniels (47:04)

Yep.

I think

that I think it's funny because I think the very thing that makes founders really good at what they do is also the same thing that makes them really bad at sticking to this one idea and keeping it like, I think naturally founders are predisposed to that kind of shiny object syndrome. see other things that they're often quite intelligent, capable people. Right. And so

they could turn their heads in different ways, they could do that, they could do this. It's that kind of relentless focus that is actually a really tough thing for founders to have. If you're only good at one thing, well, it's really easy to focus, right? Because you're like, cool, I'll just do that because I'm good at that. But most founders have quite a broad skill set and so they can pivot in different directions and that's why, that's the very thing that's dangerous about it in the first place.

Nick Berry (47:50)

Yeah.

Yeah, like that creativity and can kind of hinder you putting up the boundary and staying focused on what is like, this is most important at the moment.

Joe Daniels (48:08)

Yeah.

Yep.

The other important aspect of this, which I probably haven't covered as much, is living through that point of view. Like it's one thing to communicate it and be like, look, here's my perspective, here's my approach. You also have to do that, right? When it comes to the work, like if a client comes to you and it's like, yeah, I love this duality approach, let's do it. And then you don't do it. It's like, well, now you've just mis-sold them. And I think sometimes this work...

Nick Berry (48:38)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Daniels (48:40)

If you do this work right, sometimes it should actually change your process as well and your approach. It might be that you have to, you know, come up with a similar canvas to mine or something, right? And be like, actually we need the two wheels to show how it works. know, it might be that the very way you do the work shifts slightly as well as there is to deliver that promise of the point of view in the first place. And that's something that, you know, people might need guidance with as well in terms of just this sort of offer design and

service design around that.

Nick Berry (49:12)

Yeah. mean, it's

forcing me to, or it's forcing someone to get further like inside the mind, see the world through the eyes of their ICP. So, I mean, I would assume that you're going to learn more there that would help you optimize how you solve things. I mean, let's be honest, your shit's probably not as good as you think it is, it's solutionized. So, like, I know that.

Joe Daniels (49:26)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Ha

Nick Berry (49:42)

Right.

Joe Daniels (49:43)

I mean, look, I think one of the classic versions of that is when you talk to someone and they're like, we've got this really cool process. And then what is it? And it's the same process that everyone has. It's like, yeah, well, we do this discovery work. It's like, yeah, everyone does that. Yeah, cool. It's like, yeah, and then we do some strategy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. And then we deliver on it. Yeah, all right, cool. Yeah, no, never heard of those things before. And it's like, that's not new.

If you go, it's, it's the coming up, it's hard to just come up with a cool new process. If you don't have the point of view, that's the key thing. Cause actually you could just do anything at that point and you end up reverting to the generic thing because it could be anything. When you're obsessed with solving that one problem and solving it in that particular way, it becomes a lot easier to focus what you do and how you achieve that as well. Because it's like, well, you already naturally focused in terms of.

how to solve that problem.