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The Business Owner's Journey Podcast host: Nick Berry
Production Company: FCG

[Image Gallery: American Entrepreneur Nick Berry]

Transcript for Anthony Trucks: Identity Shift, Dark Work, and Leadership Growth

04:30 Why most people never become the person their goals require

08:04 Mindset, identity, and building belief through action

11:09 The four identity types: dreamer, dabbler, defender, dominator

14:12 Designing Dark Work and committing to a plan

17:46 Rewiring identity through effort and repetition

22:35 Losing identity after success and rebuilding who you are

26:43 The Dark Work Experience and intentional identity shifts

31:32 How to know when it’s time for an identity shift

39:18 Building impact, brands, and identity beyond yourself

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Anthony Trucks (00:00)
every goal you have requires certain habits, actions, perspectives, even paradigms, the way you see the world. if there's certain things that have to be done, but you don't identify with the actions, you don't do the actions, which means you don't get the outcome. And the outcome is the thing you want most. if you want to have something, you have to become the kind of person. It's not like become it just at like a courage level, but it's like literally the kind of person that makes outreach calls or builds this thing or films this thing or post that thing or record whatever it may be.

And so there's always going to be a thing you want and a person who has the thing. If you aren't that person at an identity level, you don't get that thing. So I say you can't attain or sustain anything above your current identity.

Kelly Berry (00:50)
Anthony Trucks is a former NFL athlete, a entrepreneur, and the leading voice on identity shift through his company, Dark Work. What if the reason that you're not hitting your goals has nothing to do with your strategy or your discipline or your motivation and everything to do with your identity? Anthony and I discuss how business owners transform who they are so their growth then becomes inevitable.

Expect to learn how identity sets the ceiling on your goals, why you can't sustain results above your current identity, how dark work rewires your habits, your actions, and your leadership identity, what separates those who stick with it from those who revert back, whether mindset or identity actually drives the long-term success, how to create proof when belief is missing, the best and the worst ways to rely on motivation to hit your goals.

how to design habits that become harder not to do. Anthony gives his take on discipline, alignment, doing the work when you don't feel like it, and how business owners can make an identity shift that's gonna change everything. I hope you enjoy this fantastic episode with Anthony Trucks.

Anthony Trucks (01:53)
And so when it comes to business, most of us go, man, I want to have a million dollar business. I recently saw something that said and I love it. It says it is harder to become the kind of person that can build a million dollar business than it is to build a million dollar business. Because the person's the one can you handle

Nick Berry (02:07)
I believe that.

Anthony Trucks (02:10)
the long days, the early mornings, the late nights, the hard feedback, the rejection, the success. Can you handle the navigating of the impromptu fall-offs? Can you have the grit to push through down times? All these things, their character identity traits that for many people, they are just too much to overcome and they slide back out of the path and then they don't see their dream be realized. Whereas for me, think other people are entrepreneurs that are successful, they talk about like…

There's a lot you have to go through. a grid of it. And most people don't realize that after a while, it has become normalized. The thing that you can't get through today becomes your everyday Tuesday. No big deal. But if you don't push far enough and shift your identity through what I call dark work, then that dream always becomes just a dream never reality for you.

Nick Berry (02:52)
the identity that we're aspiring to, ⁓ are there multiple shifts in that or is it constantly evolving? It's the future us, right?

Anthony Trucks (02:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so…

You can call it the future us. You definitely can. But it's the future's unwritten, which is crazy. But it's the truth. I mean, all of us have, we are our future us right now. The past us came to the future us. It happened one of two ways. It happened on demand. I chose to better myself or crap at the fans. Something went wrong. I had to muster the energy up. But it does happen in phases and in different areas. So the way that my identity is on display for you now is not the same as when my identity was on a football field or as a parent or as a husband with my wife.

or with my clients. That identity, not that I'm a different person, but there's different expressions of that identity. The same underlying currents there, but I express different parts of who I am in those moments. So that's the first part to pay attention to. The other thing is, just because you're good in one space doesn't mean you're going be great in the other one. You have to develop these identity traits or skill sets. So when I was great in a football field, it doesn't mean I was going be great on a stage. It doesn't mean I'm going be great on a basketball court.

I have the traits behind the scenes, but I have to develop those skills to feel confident, have the skills to do what I have to do to be successful there. This is where the process is the most important. Like I said, all of us are already our future selves from a past self. That person got there one of two ways. We talked about that. Now, when you look at the future, what you want to become, you get to choose. Do I want to do it when crap is a fan or do it on demand? So you have to start looking at what area of my life do want to have a better identity? What are the traits required?

to have success in that identity or to shift into it and start doing it. Now, here's the thing. Most people, they've heard this before. Start doing the things in line with the identity you want to be, but they do it for a day or two. They're not successful, week or two, not successful, month or two, not successful, and they revert back and go, I didn't work. And I go, no, no, no. Who you are now took you years. You have to submit to this thing so much that over time it goes from being hard to do it to hard not to do it.

Like my guess is when you first started doing the podcast, the beginning, the very first episode was kind of like, so let's go. Let's dive into it. Right. And I'm not saying you didn't believe in yourself, but it wasn't like you the confidence you have now. But that's because you went into it. You tried things you learned, you adjusted, you've built, you learn and you kept going. That journey was you going through the steps required to become a podcaster. are now that was you doing what I call the dark work. It was you behind the scenes watching videos and how to edit, what platform to use, log this in, clip this, put this as a podcast.

What's the metadata for us? What am I? The description of this, like all these little things. Nobody sees you do, but you're doing them and you're beating your head against the wall. And eventually it gets to the point where it's so much of a thing that was initially hard to do that works. Now it's it's hard for you to go to bed, not like feel like you prepared for the podcast, not feeling like you know how you're going to market this thing or how you're going to get the next guest on. Right. You just you know how to do it. You feel less like you if you don't do those things now. Whereas before it didn't feel like you at all.

Nick Berry (05:45)
So is it is the difference just sticking with it for a period of time?

Anthony Trucks (05:50)
That's at a simple rudimentary level, yes. It's sticking with it for a period of time. That's really, I wish I could break it down even cleaner, but that's really what it is. And most people go, that seems pretty simple. And I go, yeah, it sounds right. But the problem is when you do something for a period of time, doing it for period of time is a hard thing because some people go, well, is this even what I want to do? Am I doing the right thing? Should I be doing something else? Because most folks skip right to the work. They don't determine if it's the right work.

Most people like they just go I want this outcome. Let me go see what Nick's doing and I'm gonna do what Nick's doing and you start doing Nick stuff and they go man, it's not working Well because Nick did things that were specific to Nick's needs to get where Nick wanted to go But did you ever question? What do you need to do? Is it where you want to be? Is that what's right for you? And so it is as simple as doing that but getting to the point of just doing it actually is a lot of a lift

Nick Berry (06:35)
So, and I'm sure that beliefs come in there into play somewhere, right? your limitations that you've applied to yourself are gonna determine, ⁓ they're probably gonna derail you pretty early or propel you to stick with it long enough.

Anthony Trucks (06:43)
Yeah, beliefs, lack of beliefs.

Yeah, or stop you.

If you don't believe it's who you are, you won't move for most people. The other part of it is you go, I don't believe I'm that that person. I go, well, why don't you believe that? What have I done before? Oh, so you don't have proof? Yeah, I don't have any proof. Okay, let's create proof. That's it. It's just like, which means I got to do the thing. Now the first parts of proof are going to be like, yeah, you really shouldn't be doing this. It's just the nature of it. Like, this is how it works. And then eventually you start going, okay, I learned something. Let me try it again. You do a little bit better, a little bit better. And eventually over time, you go from sucking at it to being not as sucky.

Nick Berry (06:59)
Mm-hmm.

Anthony Trucks (07:15)
to being a little bit better, to being, I'm good, now I'm great at it. The journey which you're talking about, that was the progression from pain to joy of success, but now you are that person. But most folks stop so early because initially they're not that person. And that's the thing that most people aren't able to push past, which is why they don't get what they want most. I'm working really hard. Yeah, you're working at the level of what your current identity sees as its max, but the goal you want requires a different level. And it doesn't give you a discount. You're going to be required to go through that journey to get there.

Nick Berry (07:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

you

Anthony Trucks (07:44)
And that will be a lot of things that you are not good at right now that you should have no belief around because you haven't done it. But the more you do it, the better results you get eventually. Now you have the proof and the belief that you can and should be doing this.

Nick Berry (07:55)
So yeah, and I guess it's maybe a prerequisite that you have to have a growth mindset. You have to believe that you're capable of improving.

Anthony Trucks (08:04)
that's a big piece of it. Because the thing is, mindset's interesting. Mindset is an identity. Mindset is, it's within your identity. If you look at some of the most powerful identities you know of people, they don't always say like, man, my mindset's a successful piece. They just go, no, it's what I do. What do mean? just, get up every day and it's what I do. Michael Phelps, I get up every day and I swim. I'm in a pool every day. He doesn't go, well, my mindset was I had to make sure I get up. No, goes, I get up, I go to the pool every day. We describe that as his mindset.

But it's just who his identity is. It's just who he is to do that thing. So the big dance of it is, yeah, you have to kind of lean in. And part of it heavily is going to be the beliefs. And part of it's going to be, can I rewire myself to get to that point of just knowing it's who I am in time? But you start out not believing it. And then in time, you start to have yourself give different proof. And then now, it becomes a sense of self. And it's more an alignment. And here's one thing didn't talk to you, but it'll help. We as humans have a really interesting connection to being aligned with who we see ourselves to be.

Like the people, there's studies that have shown that people given glaring proof that they are wrong, they will still fight for a position because there's such a draw to be in alignment with who they see themselves to be. And so for lot of us, we don't realize you need to detach from that alignment and go, I'm going to create a new alignment and align to that. And yes, that is the sucky part that most won't go through so they won't have what they want most.

Nick Berry (09:21)
It sounds pretty powerful. mean, you see just a little bit of evidence of it working. Like, that's really powerful.

Anthony Trucks (09:28)
yeah, it honestly is it's the thing that draws you and then you get a little dopamine dump, you feel a little bit better and you move forward. But most folks are looking for that the mindset to be the solution. And it's not because the mindset after a while, it just it draws on it doesn't draw anything. Your willpower goes out the window. You're dead. You're tired. Like now what's going to move me alignment? Like I am a guy that every day for the last one thousand three hundred and today was twelve straight weekdays. I've done a podcast five to seven minute podcast called Dark Work Daily.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you I like doing it every day, but I am the guy that films a podcast every single day. Simple one, short, but it goes out. So there are definitively days where I'm like, man, I do not feel like recording this right now. I'm not motivated. I don't want to do this, but it's who I am. I'm not going to fall short of who I am. Right. There's an alignment piece there. So I pop myself out of bed, hopped downstairs, lights come on. I record the podcast. I go to bed seven minutes later. Right.

That is the thing that will drive most people when they don't want to drive to get the result that they really want to get. But so many folks don't have a thing they're aligned to. don't even know what their identity is attached to. So they'll start something with the, this could be good, but don't realize that it's not about this action being good, but it being somebody can attach to my identity so I'll never stop doing it. Then when it becomes who I am to do it, I get the result because the thing that has to be done if you are battling every day and it's who I am to do it.

inevitable. I'm gonna beat you. It's inevitable. Because you are waiting for a moment to stop and I'm like, I don't know what it means to stop. So I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna get the result when you don't.

Nick Berry (11:00)
Yeah. So how does somebody get started going like if this is new to them and they want to start work discovering their identity or like what, where do they start? What's first step?

Anthony Trucks (11:09)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I have this I have an assessment. can go to dark work dot com. Take an assessment. I'll give you the gist of it right now. There's typically four identities that we have found that the intersection of opposition and opportunity, which is you show up. You show up in those moments you're not thinking about opportunity or an opposition that hits you. Your identity, it triggers itself. And it's not even like you notice it happening. It just happens. And then we just follow suit with who we are based on our wiring, our neurological and psychological wiring.

which is wired through experience, right? So there's intersections and the intersection of opposition opportunity. I pursue or sorry, if I don't pursue opposition or opportunity because I'm scared of opposition and I stay stagnant, I'll be what's called a dreamer. I don't push past pain and I don't pursue an opportunity because it scares me. So I'm a dreamer. I'll talk about my dreams all day long, never see them through. Then you have a person that goes, man, I'm going to pursue this opportunity. But the moment opposition hits, they shut down. I call these people.

dabblers. These people are ones that are like dabble. They try something new and then like it's not easy. They go to the next thing, right? Because opposition shuts them down. But man, they love opportunity. It looks a lot of fun, right? Then you got people that have had some success and they are people that in opposition, they'll fight tooth and nail. But new opportunity scares them because it might rob them of current status. These are what I call defenders. Undefeated boxer. The person doesn't want to lose their, you know, their record or like make them look stupid. So they'll defend their position, but they won't scale the position.

The last person is an individual I call a dominator. This is a person that dominates the weaker version of themselves, but here's how they do it. They are able to push past opposition because they realize that opposition leads to opportunity. They also pursue opportunity because they know that opportunity will lead to opposition that other people stop at. They get the next level of opportunity. So these people dominate others and themselves because they go, opposition leads opportunity and opportunity, I can overcome opposition, I'm going to get more opportunity.

And it's a dance back and forth. And so they look at life and they go, man, I got whatever comes at me because I know there's gonna be problems, but I bring me to my problems. Let's rock. And that dominator, it means to exert and govern control. And again, it's not always control over other people or situations, but can I exert control over the part of me that wants to submit to excuses, submit to fear, submit to weakness, submit to opposition, you know, and just, you just fall back and you watch the dream pass you by or…

Can I dominate the weaker version inside of me that wants to stay small and go, nah, I'm going after this. I don't care if it's hard. I don't care what it is. I'm going do this. When that person shows up, they actually get to experience the life that so many people want but never get.

Nick Berry (13:39)
I love that. So you've got an assessment ⁓ that helps. Yeah. OK.

Anthony Trucks (13:43)
Yeah, it's a full thing. It breaks it

all down. And then from there, the next thing is like, now that you know, that doesn't mean that it solves your problem just means you know where you're at. Right. So the next thing we talk about, it's pretty simple, but it's not a simple but far from easy. But in the beginning process, you also want to figure out, what identity do I want based on what I want? So I got to figure out what the thing I desire is, what identities have that? What are the traits that would have to be put into my life? And most of the time, these things you're going to find out, they are butt puckering. I don't want to do that.

Nick Berry (13:50)
Right. Right.

Anthony Trucks (14:12)
That's uncomfortable, right? Like, my body ties up. I got to make this call. I got to do outreach. What if they say no, right? And so the fear creeps in. I go, great. Now you know what is the path to your success. So that you have this information. The next thing is, can you take the action to the dark work? But that is something that most people don't do right either. Most folks, they are disciplined to an emotion. I feel like doing this. I feel like having success. I feel like X, I feel like Y. But what happens when the emotion disappears?

What happens when you don't have the motivation to move? Well, I fall back to my identity. And this is where for me, got to go, if I got to put these things in place, I must be disciplined to a plan. So I say you have to design your dark. And this, you ever heard people say like, F your feelings, just get it done. Right. I used to go like, what do mean F your feelings get it done? It's not F your feelings that don't want to do it. It's can you follow a plan? And the reason you wouldn't follow a plan is because you don't feel like doing it today.

Nick Berry (14:57)
Mm-hmm.

Anthony Trucks (15:08)
That's where I say, your feelings. If you, for example, go, hey, got a pod. I want to grow this podcast. I got to put a guest on every single week. Your thing is now the plan is how do I get a guest on every week to set the thing up, make sure I'm prepped. All that has worked to that. Right. But the idea is like, no, my identity is like I do that. I have designed my life in a way to where I know when I'm going to do my research, what I'm going to prepare, when I'm going to get the recording, I'm going to show up. It's all there. Imagine if you running off a feeling you go like, I don't feel like recording with Anthony today. I'm not going to do it. I don't feel like prepping for the podcast. Right.

that's a feeling driving it. But the thing is like, I don't care you feel, because I've run a podcast now for years, like eight years. And at the same time, I'm like, I don't want to do it. But it's on the docket. It's in my calendar. I got to get it done. Let's go. I don't care how I feel. F the feelings that's on my schedule. It's got to get executed. And now all of a sudden, magically, I'm doing the thing. And doing it, I do get more efficient. I get more effective. I get better at it. And then now I get something I do. It's now part of my identity.

And so the thing is the F your feelings is based on you must create a plan that embodies the traits of the identity you want to have and subject yourself to that new experience. I alluded earlier to this idea that it's psychological and neurological wiring that makes us function certain ways. That's already happened. We just want something more without having to do the wiring required. And it doesn't happen because you want it. Doesn't happen because you sat in your couch and did the secret and thought about it.

It happened because you experienced something that you subject yourself to intentionally that rewired who you are at a neurological and psychological level. So you now are a podcaster. Before you started a podcast, you wouldn't sit there and go, I'm a podcaster. It happen because you haven't had an experience of that. And when you first started, you're probably like, I'm podcasting. But you get deep into the game like you are now. You've gone through the ups, the downs, the recording, and then you didn't hit record.

and then we didn't get the things done. missed the notes, right? These little moments, you're like, damn, you went through this experience. Hey, damn it, I'm a podcaster now, right? There's a different ownership to it, but it's not because of accident. It's because of an experience.

Nick Berry (17:13)
Yeah. So a lot of things are coming to mind too, that are so, you know, podcaster would be a, you know, a label or a role, but also, made behaviors. Like I remember a point in my life when I decided I'm going to be someone who is on time. Right. Like that's so kind of attaching that, behavior the way that I wanted to be.

Anthony Trucks (17:24)
Mm-hmm.

Nick Berry (17:35)
that was a moment for me realizing that, you can make that decision and you can, and may not stick 100 % of the time, but that's, that doesn't have to, you know, it's not perfection, right? It's, moved me in the right direction.

Anthony Trucks (17:46)
No, you just have to.

progress.

Yeah, progress. And then eventually you keep doing it, you keep doing it and keep doing it, you'll get to a day where you don't want to do it. And then something cool happens, which is there's a part of your brain called the anterior midcingulate cortex learn about it from Andrew Huberman, that when you do something you don't want to do, not that it's hard, like a workout, like I don't want to do it, because it's hard, but I'm gonna I want to do it the same time, it doesn't grow. It's when you really don't want to do it. But you do it, it grows to willpower part of your brain. But that thing, it rewires who your sense of self is, because on day 29, when you don't want to do it,

But you get it done on day 30. You feel like a superhero, man. It's a different sense of self. Like I really did that yesterday. Hell yeah. Right. And you do more of it. You do more of it. And now the crazy part is eventually it gets less and less exciting. Not that it's not less and less valuable, but it becomes normal to you to the point where you almost forget that you do it. And one time it was very hard to do it. Now it's like, yeah, I do it. It's no big deal. Somebody else might come along, go, Nick, man, how do you do that every single month? You every month? That's every Tuesday. What are you talking about? Like

It's normal to you, right? And so the idea is you've eventually built this muscle to where the thing that's hard is easy.

Nick Berry (18:53)
what if someone like loses track of the identity for whatever reason, maybe they drift, can it get away from you?

Anthony Trucks (18:58)
Yeah, it happens.

For sure. Yeah, because I mean, the thing is interesting. We are we are creatures and beings of habit, which is, you know, habits, some of them ingrained for long time are harder to break. But two, we're definitely tied to emotion and we get tired. We feel like doing things. And then we are easily for the most part, like able to be drawn to the thing that that satisfies what we'll deeper desires, the physical stuff, the eating of food. Right. Because think about it. You can go like I'm a person that's in shape. I train a lot. Right.

But damn it, that pie and that candy, that looks good. You know, like, you can fall back out of it. But the thing is, if you don't know who you are, you'll stay out of it. You'll stay in that, you'll stay in this new place you've ventured into, right? Because they say one time's an accident, multiple times, it's now a new habit. So the idea is if you understand that, that if you are aware you left that space, you've started a new habit, you can snap back to a different one. Because most people, they're functioning in a way like just randomly. I'm just doing my thing. But if you know who you are,

You'll notice when you drift, you'll go like, ah, I'm off and I can get back into it. But 100 % it happens. There's times when like I used to be a professional athlete. I was in phenomenal shape, owned a gym, phenomenal shape. In 2020, I got up to 250 pounds. My playing weight was 240. I wasn't playing anymore. You know, like I was big boy, big back. And I was like, that's not Anthony, man. This is off. And then I'm now down to a good weight. I got abs at 220 pounds. Like I took the last, literally, of my 200 workout yesterday at my trainer.

I saw on the app showed up but like a year and a half I've been doing this. But it's not hard now. It was hard. I got out of it. I floated into a guy that was like, I don't know this guy but to get back to me took time. And it was hard but I knew like this is the person I want to be. It's in line. Now it's hard for me to close a day and not have walked six miles, not have gotten my lift in, not have eaten the food, the 2200 calories I'm supposed to have and 220 of protein and 201 of my carbs and then 49 of fat. Like I know my numbers, right?

It's hard to not be that guy because I've done it so long. But yes, we can easily fall off. But then we got to be able to know like, okay, I'm off. Let me get back on and have something to be the back on. If there's no structure to what you were, then you don't even know how to get back to what you were.

Nick Berry (21:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So when you realized that, that you'd gotten off, were you able to kind of snap back to, you knew what the identity was you wanted to get back to that took that, like that part happened quick, but then the work to get you there was what took a long time. Yeah.

Anthony Trucks (21:17)
Yeah.

The process hard.

Hell yeah, man. Because you know, but like, think about it, when you're a young guy, you could move and jump. Now, I mean, I got a bit if I don't stretch my backs out in like 20 minutes, I'm like, I got to go to the chiropractor, right? But it just sucks. But yeah, the journey back is a hard one, because all of us want to wake up and be that person today. And that's the thing. Can I can I submit to the process is other part of it? Can I actually get back into the groove and not identify with the outcome, but identify with the effort?

Nick Berry (21:31)
⁓ yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Anthony Trucks (21:47)
Can I be a

person that just does that every day? And then that's it. I just close the day going, I did my thing today. And little by little by little, you eventually slide back into who you were. It is not overnight. And if you expect it to be, you'll be comparing yourself to an outcome every day. Eventually your willpower drains and you stop. But if I go, look, my thing is, I just want to stack the days today, I'm going to do this. And that's all I'm focused on. And I do that. Good, done, close the day. Wake up the next day, do the exact same thing.

I will over time fall back into being that person and wake up one day and go, damn, I'm finally there and be appreciative of being there, but also happy every day of the process leading to there.

Nick Berry (22:24)
Okay. Yeah. So I'll tell you what I'm thinking about is I sold my last business in the beginning of 2024 and kind of went through that season of, let's figure out what we're going to do, you know, for the rest of my life. Right. And taking a year to do that, when I decided to like kind of step back in and be more active and start building a business again, I, it was kind of like,

Anthony Trucks (22:35)
Who am I? Yeah. I get it.

Yeah.

Nick Berry (22:52)
There were some areas of what I believe my identity was that were fuzzy or rusty. And so I don't think that I did snap back to clarity on that future self very, very quickly. That was a challenge, like a kind of a stressful one because you're not sure like who is, should I know this? Did I not know what I was before? What happened here?

Anthony Trucks (22:57)
Mm-hmm. For sure.

Yeah, it's hard.

Yeah, you're not abnormal.

Well, the interesting thing is you're alluding to a point where I was former NFL, so out of the NFL, people in the military, same thing, empty nesters. When you are no longer doing the thing that you used to do every day that made you who you are, it is a massive question mark floating over your head. I was like, who is Anthony without the football? I was a football guy, right?

Then it's like, well, if I'm military, who am I if I'm not a soldier? If a mom, like, who am I if I'm not a mom taking care of my kids every day? Who am I? Right. And so you have these intangible traits, but I don't know how to use them any other way than I've used them. That's the hard part. So I don't see myself as having value in whatever area. But the crazy thing is, it's metaphorically like I had this beautiful tree that I nurtured and planted seed and I learned how to grow it and, you know, prune it. Now it's a beautiful tree.

but that tree got shipped off somewhere else. So now I gotta go across the road and I got this whole plot of land and this open space and I put another seed in the ground and I go, all right, where's my tree? I want it right now because I don't like the feeling of having no tree. But the thing is, it doesn't grow any faster. It grows the exact same, but you know what to expect for the process. You know how to do the things you did before that were mistakes, probably without the same mistakes. So it might grow a little bit faster because you know, like this time of the year, do this, this time, don't do this. Like you know more things. You can actually build.

another tree. So the idea is to not identify with the tree, but the person who's able to grow the tree. If I go this, I'm then you never lose sense of self. Another random metaphor with trees is it's like we have like an apple tree and the fruit of your labor is what you created like the business right? That apple fell off the tree it rolled in the ground and I'm the apple so I feel like crap because the fruits good for a little while after a while though, it gets rotten and stale and it sucks and I go man what do I do? But the truth is, you were never the piece of fruit.

You are always the tree producing that fruit. If you go back to the tree and go, all right, let me give this tree, you know, sustenance and nurture it and put in the right environment, all that kind of stuff, you can produce better and sweeter fruit. But most don't think of it that way. So, yeah, you sold the business, but you didn't sell yourself, right? So the traits of who you are, we just got to reestablish different places to express those. You'll get right back into the flow if you were. And yeah, it doesn't take like a day. It takes time to notice it. So for me, it took three years. For you, you're probably, you know, you notice it took time.

And that's very normal. It's abnormal to go like, sold the business. I got this, I'm doing this now. I'm on, let's go. Right? Like there's a hiatus, there's a window. And I know I've got buddies that are doing the exact same thing. And it's like, no, we got to get you back to yourself expressed in something else that makes you feel like yourself. Which is why I'm talking a lot, but I'm not a fan of like the idea of retirement in our industry, because I'm a builder. I'm a builder. I also don't know about the idea of like, isn't enough too enough? And I'm like, it's not about what I'm getting.

Nick Berry (25:37)
Yeah.

Anthony Trucks (25:58)
It's about the fact that I'm a builder, I build. I'm happiest in build mode. I can have the building be sold, but I still I want to build. That's what I do every day. I don't know. I don't know whether the part of my expression of my humanity. And so when I'm building, I just want to build. And yeah, you may see it as like, oh, he's he was once a, you know, accumulate more, more money and more things like those guys aren't looking just for more money. But there's a they're used to a cadence of doing what happens. That's the outcome of it. But they're used to building. And so if you stop building, you notice it.

And that's the pain is like, how do I'm not the builder I am. I'm just this guy that built. I'm not prepared to be the guy that built. I want to still be the builder.

Nick Berry (26:34)
So you, you mentioned the assessment that you do with, dark work. Can you tell me a little bit more about how you take people through this process with Darkwork.

Anthony Trucks (26:43)
Yeah.

So the thing for me is I noticed that individuals need to have a window of time to work through. We call it a dark work experience. The idea is to literally do all the things we're talking about and subject you to an actual experience that is intentional. So the first is four week, four month process. The first four weeks of it, it's all set up. It's doing all the things that have to do with establishing who you are, who you want to be, what you want to get, what's been holding you back. Like we do a lot of like dirt work, like digging the dirt, figure out what's going on in the darkness.

What's the underlying aspects to why you're not where you want to be? And then once we know these things, it informs us of what we want to actually do. We go to the second stage, which is dark work. Design your dark, create a declaration, and then go dark. All this stuff happens in the first four weeks of setup. And then we find that the next three months, it's all life. And there's a reason I do it this way. I don't want you to have the safety and comfort and assume it's growth of just…

listening to audio stuff and doing coursework and sit with your coach and having great ideas. Life is the best classroom. I need you to go into life. But I you to try to shoot into the life lessons that are harder for you go to AP life, master's life, honors life, right? Meaning, if you want this thing, I need you to create this plan of what it's going to be and then commit to doing it. And when you get to the next three months, we do is all in one on one, by the way, it's not like a group setting, it's you have a one on one coach. And this this you plan this all both the professional

pursuance you want and the personal aspects you want to focus on. So it's a duality. And then you're now in a window of 90 days of we're going to work, you're pretty much applying this design dark plan. And it's not fun. It's not supposed to be like the fun like it's a joy like you're gonna have to make asks you don't want to make you have to build things you don't want to build you have to do things learn things you're not used to doing like you have to do the work of life. And life always presents you with a situation where you go I don't like doing it.

Now it doesn't come out in the language of I don't want to do it. It comes out in procrastination, apprehension, fear, trying to find a different way to do it. I go, no, the only way is through, man. Let's go. And so when you come to the call and go like, this is the plan. I go, did you do it? No, I didn't do it. Why? Well, now hold on. What do mean? I get you get excuses or the achievement. You don't get both. Which one do you want? We have a conversation about it. We figure out what the excuse is, where it's underlying. And now I go, OK, cool, this happened here. Next time, try this or just this or don't think like this and just push.

And they do it. All of sudden they go, man, I feel different. Like, yeah, because now this new experience you went through gave you different proof. It started to rewire your psychology and your neurology, your actual identity underneath. So after 90 days of doing these kind of things where every week is like a whole new challenge, you get to the backside, you have experienced something you haven't experienced before. There was no way you're the exact same person. It's an inevitability you changed because in a good way.

because you've now tried things that you weren't used to doing because you wanted this thing that now required you to do new things. You did them and now you've become over time the kind of person that does those things. So you don't just achieve the achievement of writing the book, you're now an author. I don't achieve the achievement of taking a boxing class, I'm a boxer. Why? Because I subjected myself to an intense experience that rewired me toward now I'm not just trying that thing, I'm the kind of person that does that thing at an identity level.

Nick Berry (29:52)
And that it probably, takes that type of experience to, break free of the inertia, I guess. They're turning the battleship.

Anthony Trucks (29:58)
Everybody does everybody

it does and there's a lot of people that do this accidentally but they do it six years from now and they could do it six hours from now. They just wait till their backs against the wall and they changed honestly just by because crap hits the fan. But how much of life have you lost out on how many in those six years what could have been part of your life at this point now had you done this six years ago intentionally. And so for us yeah this is you have to go through the experience no one accidentally.

has an amazing marriage. You don't accidentally become a great parent or accidentally have a million dollar business. doesn't accidentally happen. You become the kind of person that has that. Now how fast you get that or you know the level of what you maintain it after you've got it, that's tied to who your identity is. Like if someone gives you money, it's not the same as when you earn the money. It's two different things. So when you have earned the business, earned the money, you have these different traits and ownership that you now

and body and so you protected differently, you managed differently, you stewarded differently. And so for a lot of folks, they just they want to have it without the hard work. And it's like, man, that's the most beautiful thing because I've noticed this about myself and people I work with. What we are the most proud of, we're proud because it was hard. The first rule of CrossFit is always talk about CrossFit, right? Why? Because it's so hard. But childbirth, my wife always talks about childbirth when she's around strange women. I'm like, what is going on? It's because it was hard. They're proud of it, right?

And so I go, that's the case. All of us should be pursuing that because that hard thing makes it who you are. And that is a requirement for what you want.

Nick Berry (31:24)
Yeah. So are there, I'm sure there are, but like what are the signs that somebody is ready for this experience? It's time for them to work on their identity.

Anthony Trucks (31:32)
Oh, that's a great question.

Yeah, two things. One is going to be the feeling of burnout, which is I've worked so hard, I've been putting so much into this, I'm just not getting the result I want. And I go, well, the thing is twofold. One, you might just be doing things that are the wrong things to do. You're burned out because you have been giving energy, but you haven't been shoring up your leaks. Like if you got a boat and there's specific places where like you could put a patch to plug the boat that's leaking.

If you put patches on things that don't have holes, you're going to be wasting your energy. So you burn yourself out and the boat's still sinking. So the biggest thing is you have to notice, like, if you've been working really hard towards something, like really, like if you can honestly say, I've given my all to this and I'm not getting there, that's because part of your identity you haven't noticed has been your biggest issue. You've been beating yourself up, you've been your own worst enemy. But if you can step back and go, man, I got to figure out why I'm struggling, then you can figure out. There's a statement by guy named Tim Murphy says,

It's hard to see the label when you're inside the jar. A lot of us are unaware of the labels on our jar. Other people could see them, but we don't see them. So we're doing work that's not the right work because the label is different than what we're actually doing. It's the first piece. The second piece of what ties to how you know is the fact that you have this really interesting deep, like, gnawing inside of you, can't shut up. In your quiet times, you dream about this thing. In your conversations, you talk about it.

You're researching on the internet, you're playing with it, but you're not living it. That's how you know it's time to make the shift. Because a lot of people, are lulled to sleep with the safety and security of the life that their job provides for them or the security of the relationship they're not alive in anymore or the hobby that doesn't kind of keep that same interest. And what happens, lot of us are just like, well, that's just what it is. And we accept that mediocrity because it's like, well, I I got to do it. It's like, no, you don't.

If you are feeling inside of you something that doesn't feel like a line or doesn't feel like you're alive or you have more to give, that's your body, your soul, the universe, your God, whatever it is telling you like, hey, you're meant for more. Like go, because you wouldn't have the thoughts or ideas if you weren't supposed to have the thoughts or ideas.

Nick Berry (33:35)
Mm-hmm. So like something you're unsettled, something's not right. Yeah.

Anthony Trucks (33:38)
Yeah. Uh-huh. Something, yeah. And we know it. People who are,

living it. Like, the thing is, your life, for a lot of folks, their life is good. Like, you know, their bills are paid, they're healthy, cars driving is no problem, but they don't feel alive. Like, they feel like, man, you know, it's all right. Life's okay. It's good, right? But I want people to go like, wow, my life is amazing, right? What's the difference? It's just what you're doing every day. Same time, same hours, same minutes go by. But are you doing things that light your soul up?

And when you get to the point of going like I am doing what I was meant to do here, but you never burn us out a part of it. You are an alignment like you are over. I I at this point in my life, I'm incredibly blessed to have a life that I am so in love with. have a wife I love. have kids I love. I have a business I love. All these things I get to do how I serve. But none of it was accidental. A lot. I mean, all of it was incredibly hard. I divorced for three years. It was so hard to get this back together. My marriage.

My businesses for long time was going broke before I figured it out, right? So it's all part of it. But now the way that my life works with how many speeches I do, how I get to serve, who I get to serve, how I'm present with my kids, do my life is at so much peace. Like I am, I am in a phenomenal state of life, but it took me 42 years to get here, you know? But the thing is, no, but I knew, I knew at times when I wasn't like aligned and I was divorced and life was like, I'm like, this isn't my, this isn't supposed to be, man, I got to change some things.

Nick Berry (34:51)
And it's not an accident.

Anthony Trucks (35:01)
And I did. And over time, little, little, I got better. And so for me going back in time, I go, that's when I knew that my identity had to change. But then when I got the shift and I'm in this place now, like, dude, just I just want to give it back. I love doing this because I get to give some of this back to the world in some way. I don't even know what's going turn into who's going to hear it. But like, I don't have a need from anybody. I don't need you to do anything for me. I don't need people to do stuff like I am in a place where I'm like, my needs are met. I'm trying to give and fulfill other people's needs, because that's how I get to feel better at this point in my life.

but I know my identity is where it's supposed to be and it took a lot of years to get to this point.

Nick Berry (35:34)
it's the level of clarity that comes through when you're talking about these things. I mean, there's the polished speaker, but that's also not the same thing as your sense of clarity about these things. I mean, it's impressive, but I've heard you talk.

Anthony Trucks (35:47)
Thank you.

Nick Berry (35:48)
Uh, you know, enough times and each time there, you know, there's this turning point, this experience that you're referencing where, like you had a decision to make and it all, he comes back to this is how Anthony's going to be, or I can go this other direction. I'm going to choose, like, this is the way that I want to be. And so, yeah, that's why I said that it's no accident that you've ended up in this place that you are.

Anthony Trucks (35:57)
Mm-hmm.

Thank you. Thank you.

Nick Berry (36:13)
So we talked about dark work and some of the work that you guys are doing, but what else do you have your hand in?

Anthony Trucks (36:13)
Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, fun things, man. So the thing is, I, I have built a beautiful speaking business where I get to go serve massive, amazing, you know, fortune 100 companies and even better, which was not an expectation. The beginning was complete accident start speaking. And then I started finding that people, they want to know how I did it. Like, how'd you build that business? And it wasn't in the beginning, any thing from a desire to teach people how to build a speaking business. But this is thing you ever heard of the law of marginal utility?

It's this concept that there's a certain level at where something's utility diminishes and the margin changes. So if I have 10 hamburgers and I'm starving, if I eat the first hamburger, it's super valuable. The utility of that is super high, right? The second one, a little bit lower. But third, I'm like, I'm full, man, but I got seven hamburgers. What do I with the other seven hamburgers? I still want to feel good, though. I give them to people who are hungry.

So there's a utility to that for them, right? So marginal utility is like once you have something over time, the next thing is, well, how do I feel better? We'll still give it to somebody else they can feel good to. And so my speaking business, I do well. I get the speeches I want and I can say no to some and I could just I can live my life how I choose. And so I just want to give that to other people because that world runs smooth and I'm good there. I'm dialed. And so at this point, I go, people want to know how do you build a speaking business? And I don't have to be, you know, like

keeping it close to the vest. can be very abundant with how I share stuff. So I now teach people in a company called Speak to Freedom how to speak to a life of freedom. I break the entire thing down, how it works, how to run it. And I've got clients that are living amazingly cool lives because they built this beautiful speaking business that gives them a ton of freedom. And so for me, like that's that's what I do now, separate from teaching all these things I'm saying on Dark Work from coaching and consulting and workshops on the stage. I then had people go, how do you build that business? And so I help them take their own personal message, their own personal story.

and really packaged up, put into a beautiful business system that they can take into the world and create their own freedom.

Nick Berry (38:11)
And it's, I mean, it's the beauty of it. I have a great advice. Business is you're just giving people the, what you figured out the system that works, right?

Anthony Trucks (38:20)
It's it. Yeah, even yeah, even more even having a codified even more. That's the hard part. Just because you do doesn't mean you can teach it. So the teaching took a lot of time to figure out like how do I make what I did off of just random instinct, a thought that I can teach you. So like that that's taken a good few years. I'm there now. But for a of years, we're just having a lot of coaches, I work a lot of people to figure it out. But now it's super codified and very supportive ton of tools and tech and stuff built into it where it's a where it's a phenomenal machine.

I can't even take full credit for everything. I got great team that has built great things. It's been my brainchild, but a lot of it's like my clients need something. How do we solve their problem? Right. So little by little by little, I've gone through to where now it's it's yeah, dude, it is dialed and it's tight and it works. It's fun to watch.

Nick Berry (39:03)
That's fantastic. I love hearing about it. I because I mean, I know what goes into it. Even when somebody makes it look really easy, there's a lot more to it than that.

Anthony Trucks (39:10)
Yeah, yeah,

there's so much complexity to simplicity.

Nick Berry (39:15)
Mm So what about the future? What are you going to do?

Anthony Trucks (39:18)
Yeah,

this man, the future for me is I'm done doing other things. I the dark work brand at some point I will pull myself back from. But I want the brand to have leverage and legs to go well beyond me kind of like your blue ocean theory or, you know, like, you know, the the test they do like the gallops like I don't know who made it, they made it now it's out beyond them. And they're not the ones even a face of it. Right. That's what I want dark work to be in time of people going to a place that is doing identity shift coaching.

Through the dark work brand so that that may not it would be Anthony and that's the future we'll call it the speak to freedom brand as long as I'm speaking I'm gonna run that I I don't see myself not speaking I know people that speak well the old age, right? I don't want to have to be on a stage I want to choose to be on the stages But I know that the way you do that when you're in the older at realm is you have to have something That is leading a lot of people I've noticed those that are you know, there's 60 70s that are speaking the ones that we know prominently They've got a massive

Community or following or something they've built something beyond them the different teams like Tony Robbins your Maxwell's or go Gordon's they're running these behemoths That's why they're still relevant in their age Whereas those that didn't build that they're kind of like they're cool-speaking, but they're not the same like Les Brown He's one of us on the edge. We have some cool products and programs, but he's he's a phenomenal speaker But he's not as prominent with backside programs and coaching and teams as like Robbins and Maxwell So for me, I want dark work to be that big beautiful brand out that I've built and still running

where I can go and choose to speak when I want to but in that I can still create a program and teach up and coming speakers how to make that move. So until I retire, it's these two brands, Dark Work speak to freedom and I don't have a desire to do anything else besides that.

Nick Berry (40:56)
mean, that sounds like a fantastic place to be.

Anthony Trucks (40:59)
Yeah, it feels real good, man. I get to hone in and get better and better and better as opposed to like trying to create everything from scratch. And I do believe that in some time, my kids will likely create their own visions and I'll just kind of support them and what they do. Not that I'm, anyone will ever know that I'm doing it, but like, know, the background of having them think through things or connect with people. So I'm sure I'll have my hands in other things, but it won't be my thing.

Nick Berry (41:19)
Well, thank you. I really appreciate you being here. It's fantastic to catch up with you. mean,

Anthony Trucks (41:24)
Yeah,

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