Caitlin Johnson: Gamification Strategies for Business Leaders

How to Get More of Nick Berry and tBOJ

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform and leave a review. Your feedback helps us bring you more valuable content.

Follow us:

• Nick on LinkedIn
• Nick on X
• tBOJ Podcast on X
• Redesigned.Business

The Business Owner's Journey Podcast host: Nick Berry
Production Company: FCG

[Image Gallery: American Entrepreneur Nick Berry]

Episode Transcript for: Caitlin Johnson: Gamification Strategies for Business Leaders

01:38 Caitlin Johnson’s Journey & Gamification in Business

02:14 Ikigai and Leadership Development

05:06 Overcoming Cynicism & Change

07:37 Gamification in Performance Coaching

10:33 Achieving Goals with Streaks & Mulligans

16:10 Gamer’s Mindset & Motivation

18:56 Success Stories in Business Growth

21:46 Game Player Psychology & Team Performance

30:58 Change Management with Game Design

35:18 Strategic Gamification for Employee Development

40:15 Business Growth and Goal Achievement

42:49 Implementing Gamification in Organizations

Caitlin Johnson (00:00)

I appreciate and love the science and the methodology and the framework of game design and why I like it so much is that it simplifies strategy and execution.

It simplifies change management. It simplifies continuous improvement. And it simplifies project management. Like inside of game design, all of those corporate terms are like sprinkled in and hidden inside of it. And so for me, when I think about working within organizations, it's like, okay, I can help you build your strategy, execute with your team, design the change management of the people component to get them involved to play the game.

We're gonna do this for 90 day quests and then we're gonna iterate and figure out what worked and what didn't. And then we'll continue to level up and celebrate.

Kelly Berry (00:57)

Caitlin Johnson is a master certified performance coach, a gamification expert, and the founder of Bold Bird Consulting. What does it really take to build teams that are going to win, leaders who are going to grow, and businesses that are actually going to stick to their goals? Today, Caitlin is going to dig into the science and the strategy behind gamification in the real business world. Expect to learn how gamification unlocks team engagement and performance, what it takes to design a winnable game that will work in your business,

Whether competition or collaboration moves the needle faster. Caitlin's take on the four types of players in every organization. How streaks, habits, and mulligans can drive your long-term success. The best and the worst ways to roll out change that actually will last. What motivates millennials and Gen Z to stay or leave. And how to avoid the classic mistakes that leaders make with incentives. Enjoy this episode with Caitlin Johnson.

Caitlin Johnson (01:54)

I was a preteen NASA nerd alert okay and I got really hooked into space and aeronautics because my dad loved it and he took me to a kids science museum when I was I don't know 12 or 13 years old.

and we got to meet Guy Bluford Jr. who was the first African-American astronaut in space. And the one thing that stood out the most to me is something he said in the Q &A session after his talk about how he became an astronaut and all the cool things that he got to do in space. And one of the kids in the audience asked, well, how did you know you wanted to become an astronaut? Like, how did that become an option for you? And he just laughed because he was like, look,

I just figured out what I was good at doing, what I loved doing, and then I went and found a way to get paid to do it. Like that simple. And so as I walk out of this kids museum, I was like, that's what I want to do in my life is find what I'm good at doing and then find a way to get paid to do it. So that's been my true north since a preteen in every job I've had is, is there some element

of requirement that I'm good at, that I like doing, and therefore I can get paid to do it. Of course, there's always components that you're not going to like in a role, but you know, 80-20. Is there 80 % of which I can tolerate and I enjoy? Yeah.

Nick Berry (03:13)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's

funny. It's funny to for it to be stated so simply, like find the thing that I'm really good at and go get paid for it. And that's the epiphany that you had at 12 that, I mean, adults are trying to find that level of clarity every day.

Caitlin Johnson (03:36)

Right, yeah. And you know, I think it's progressive too, because I think of the American mindset of what do want to be when you grow up? What's the American dream? What is that one thing you're going to do? And I don't feel like it is a one thing. There's a beautiful concept called Ikigai, which is a Japanese belief of your reason for being. And they believe your Ikigai changes and adapts with you as you grow in life.

So to me, it's more of what do I want to be right now? And then once I conquer it and feel solid with it, my next question is, well, what do I want to be next? And so every career progressing had that question behind me of what do I want to do next?

Nick Berry (04:11)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

It's kind of like giving yourself permission to evolve. I can feel the...

Caitlin Johnson (04:21)

Yeah, it's bold

though, because it's easy to get stuck. And there was a time in my life that I did get stuck. And this is part of where it helps me get to where I am now too. So it's all part of my journey. But there was a moment in 2019 where I was sitting on the back patio after a day of work and I was just in a very cynical headspace. I was in a role that I had been doing for nine years and

truly felt like been there, done that, tired of training the next person. And my daughter came up to the window. She was inside the house and just blew a raspberry on the window. And it was just so hilarious. But Nick, in that moment, I was like, she's going to end up in a dead-end job like me, going to work for a leader she can't stand. And I was like so negative. As soon as I said that in my head, I was like,

no way. There's no way this little girl, I'm gonna let this little girl believe that. Which means as a mom, I need to make a change. Right? She was, boy, maybe seven or eight and she's 16 now.

Nick Berry (05:24)

Right. So how old was she?

So how long do you think that you had kind of that way of thinking had started to like get in there?

Caitlin Johnson (05:38)

I think it was a progressive journey over three or four years. So a couple of things, I'm a go-getter and I always have something that I'm going after. And I decided to strategically make lateral moves within my career so I could be at home with my kids. Best decision ever, but there was also like this.

raring tiger inside of me that was trying to be tamed because it's like, no, no, you can't come out yet. If it comes out, you have to come out in playful ways. Go pick the kids up early from school. Do all of that relationship building components. And later, that tiger can come back out. Some people might be listening to this and be like, that is the wrong way to look at raising kids and having a family. But it is a dynamic for high achievers.

to try to balance going after big things in life and also have a family. So for several years, I made lateral decisions. And now that my kids are getting older and don't really want a whole lot to do with me, I mean, that's not true, right? But they're teenagers, they're coming together on their own, they're developing their own thoughts. So I coach them through things, right? But they don't need me holding their hand as much.

So now I have the opportunity to step into the entrepreneurial world and continue to build my business.

Nick Berry (06:58)

So the, you said, a goal, a goal getter and the high achievers. It's like the persona I'm putting it together. Were you the friend growing up that like, nobody wants to play a game of Caitlyn? Cause it's going to get too, too much too fast. And then, so the gamification expertise, like that was the end. That was where it was going to end up all along.

Caitlin Johnson (07:09)

Hahaha!

Yeah.

Yeah, to a certain extent, right? Like I wasn't overly competitive. I was just always achieving something. Like, yeah, I was that kid in elementary school that, and you know, when we did those like end of year celebrations where everyone was recognized for their achievements, like I walk out of the cafeteria with like seven awards, you know, and some of my friends would be like, why do you have to have so many, Caitlin? I'm like, I didn't do anything.

Nick Berry (07:48)

Why do you all not have to have them? That's the question.

Caitlin Johnson (07:48)

I was like, well, yeah.

I was like, the teachers picked who got them. It's not like I like tried to market for them. But yeah, I always had a lot. My mom told me to do two less things when I was growing up. Like, Caitlin, just do two less things. You don't have to be perfect. She also told me to bring a detention home in high school because I was...

Nick Berry (08:13)

Break a rule.

Caitlin Johnson (08:14)

Yeah, breaker rule, like chill

out a little bit. Yeah.

Nick Berry (08:17)

That's interesting. Well,

So, so let's talk about the gamification and your performance coaching and how your expertise and what that looks like and how we can use it today.

Caitlin Johnson (08:19)

each their own.

Yeah.

Okay. So gamification, I actually came across the term in 2014 and I had a leader I was working for ask, how can we tap into the hearts and minds of our hourly associates and can we use games to do it? So from then on, actually I was really skeptical. I was like games in the workplace. That sounds really ridiculous. But when you realize there's a science and a methodology and a framework to how we play games and why we play games,

then you can tap into developing strategies that are motivating to help people contribute to meaningful things. And so I started to build out corporate strategies with game design in mind to be able to drive organizational impact and associate engagement. And the amazing piece of this is that it can all happen in 90 days. You can start to see traction in 90 days when you've got clarity, solid,

nor star that everybody is driving towards. Everyone's playing team dynamics, friendly competition at times, collaboration at others. And when you're a part of a winning team, that builds momentum and then everybody wants to keep playing.

Nick Berry (09:39)

So what does that look like? on like the smallest scale? mean, like, can I the same thing would apply to an individual, right? You can do it for yourself.

Caitlin Johnson (09:43)

Oh yeah. 100%.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100%. I'm actually in the process of writing a book on how to gamify your goals and taking the processes I used at Fortune 200 companies to apply to individual goal achievements. And the fun fact about this, I have a 136 week streak of effort in building this book. So every week, every week I'm doing at least one thing.

to help get this book out into the world. And so, yeah.

Nick Berry (10:16)

OK,

that's some great framing right there.

Caitlin Johnson (10:20)

Yes, like think about the amazing things we want to accomplish in life and how hard it can be because we're so busy reacting to the chaos. And so when you focus on your epic mission in life, and right now mine is to spread the word on how to use game design to achieve goals, my epic mission is to get this book into the world and have people start to champion this idea. So therefore, if it's important to me, I must keep action behind it.

to keep it strong. And so the streak does that for me because have you ever done Duolingo by any chance or yeah, okay. The second you break that streak, it's like demoralizing, right? So a streak can backfire on you, but it can also fuel you to not wanna break it.

Nick Berry (10:50)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah. So was it Seinfeld that he's the one that talked about? Like you just write a joke every day, something like that. Yeah.

Caitlin Johnson (11:11)

Yes.

That's right. Yeah. Don't break the chain because he would

put an X in the calendar.

Nick Berry (11:19)

You were talking about like some of the elements that go into it. And I see the, um, Octalysis the gamification book behind you, like that's my level of familiarity. but I know that, there's more out there. So like kind of fill in the blanks between just like checking off a streak, of doing a thing X days in a row and like all of the other things that go into,

Caitlin Johnson (11:25)

Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Nick Berry (11:40)

setting goals and gamifying progress.

Caitlin Johnson (11:41)

Mm-hmm. Sure.

So the method that I'll use, and this could be used for individuals, it can be used for teams, it can be used for organizations. The first step is to really identify the epic mission. So if you think of video game design, there is a reason to play. You have your narrative, right? What is the hero needing to do by the end of the game? That's what you need to come up with with that epic mission. To translate it to an individual, this is...

a bit of a macabre activity, but if you really would think about what do I want on my tombstone at the end of my game, right? Or do the Ikigai exercise of what is my reason for being? Having that why to move you. Then you're going to take that big picture why, you could call that a big hairy audacious goal, right? But it's so big and it's so hairy, you have no idea what to do next. So then break it down into

quarterly quests. What can I do this season, this quarter, to help me become or achieve that epic mission? So now you're drilling it down and narrowing your focus. Then you're going to drill it down one more time to say, what is an action or behavior that I can do daily or weekly to help me make progress on the quarterly quest to then make progress in the bigger picture of life?

So those actions is where the momentum really comes into play. And you can't be a hero with this action. If you think about, I want to lose weight and go to exercise at the gym. If you say, I'm going to go to the gym every day, you've got to be very specific because you can just walk and talk to the person next to you and not get the caloric burn that you need. So it might be, I'm going to shoot for.

200 calories lost three times a week or whatever the case may be. Get really specific and then keep a streak of that activity. Don't break it. It starts to help you build the confidence that you can do hard things. And it's not hard in the sense of grit and military resistance, persistence. It's persisting in the face of obstacles. Cause if you can keep that streak, even on the days you don't wanna wake up in the morning, right?

Nick Berry (13:55)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (13:56)

then you're building the confidence that you can do the things you want to do.

Nick Berry (14:00)

Right. Like it's, the, the third or half or however many, whatever percentage of the time that it's easy that you feel good. Like that's easy. Everybody can get through those days. It's the days that you could have just as easily talked yourself out of it or the days you had an excuse to, like, nobody would say anything. It would be fine. Totally justified for you to skip it, but you didn't like it's the thing that got you to go to follow through those days.

Caitlin Johnson (14:09)

Yes. Yes.

Yes, that's right. That's right.

Mm-hmm.

But here's the thing, right? Because streaks, there are days where I remember Duolingo, gosh, there would be a day I would forget. Ugh! But thank goodness for a streak freeze, right? So here's what I end up doing for myself is there's a golf concept. Do you play golf? Okay, I don't. I've thought about it, but I haven't taken action on it.

Nick Berry (14:33)

You can wreck your day.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Caitlin Johnson (14:51)

But there's a concept called a mulligan. Are you familiar with this? Okay, tell everybody. Yeah, it's a do-over, right? It's, have you had to use it?

Nick Berry (14:55)

I am a do over. Yeah, yeah, you get it. Of course,

I'm not a good golfer. I mean for for like the weekend golfer or the average Joe, it's that's part of the game. Like you know you play a friendly game and everybody gets one around or something like that.

Caitlin Johnson (15:14)

Yes.

And that's, that's what you just said right there is gold, because if you can give yourself a certain amount of mulligans to use. So think about, I'm going to keep a streak, but then I'm going to give myself three mulligans a month. And then just as soon as you're out of them, that's it. Right. So then you can be strategic to say like, gosh, it's maybe it's Sunday and it's been a wild week of travel. I don't know if I can.

stick to it, or maybe I want to recognize the amount of effort I have been putting in and I'm going to give myself a mulligan, right? And then get back on your street the next day. So this allows for grace. It allows for crazy real world pop-ups in life to be able to bend where you need to bend, but then get back on track as well.

Nick Berry (16:01)

And that's the thing that's really jumping out at me is like the next, the following day or following week, whatever it really, I won't say it eliminates, it removes the potential for that. Well, why get, why get started again? I can't do all month now, or I can't hit this number now.

Caitlin Johnson (16:16)

Yes,

that's right. Like to overcome your failure, right? Of like, I missed a day, you know, and well, yeah, that's right. Or which is almost worse, do I lie to myself and check it off anyways and keep going? Right? See, I would rather not lie because that just doesn't stick with my integrity. It's easy to do, but I would rather put a goose egg mulligan and then just realize, okay.

Nick Berry (16:19)

Mm-hmm.

like torpedo the whole thing.

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (16:43)

Now here's the thing with those goose egg mulligans or do-overs, however you want to depict it in your calendar, look at them afterwards and see, are there any trends? Do you need to adjust your strategy into the next season, into your next quarterly quest? Cause maybe Sundays are just a no go. were their family days. Maybe you do religious services on those days. And it's like, look, that's going to be my day of rest. And so

then at that point you're looking at trends of when do I perform well that I just need to incorporate into my life and when does it just not work.

Nick Berry (17:19)

Yeah. So tell me, let's, let's talk about some success stories. Some of the people, mean, so I guess before I go into that, this is a way of life for you, right? Like you gave up everything, don't you?

Caitlin Johnson (17:24)

Mm.

⁓ it's a mindset. Yeah,

this is a mindset. Actually, it's a working title for my book is The Gamer's Mindset, because I truly believe like this helps you overcome obstacles and helps you persist and it helps you be creative. For example, actually, you're talking stories. I was in the airport yesterday. I was in Houston and there was a massive snow and that snowstorm. Sorry, lightning storm, because I'd be crazy if there was a snowstorm, but lightning. And so

The incoming plane landed, but couldn't come to the gate because of the lightning. So we were about an hour, hour and a half delayed. And I ended up talking with a gentleman who had a connecting flight. And so he's like, oh, I'm going to end up missing it. But then through conversation, this was so interesting. He's like, oh, I just got a job recently in Chicago. So I'm trying to connect to get to Chicago. I'm going through Charlotte. But my wife still lives in Raleigh because we're still trying to work out the transition. And so I was like,

why don't you have her come pick you up? Like you're, you're going to get stuck in Charlotte, just have her come get you. And he's like, why didn't I think of that? And then we took it to the next level. I was like, wait, no, you're on a business trip. You're going to need a hotel. Why don't you come have her stay with you at the hotel? Right. And so it was just this cool opportunity to overcome this, you know, crappy

experience of I'm gonna miss my connection, I'm not gonna get to work the next day, but my gosh now I have a chance to see my wife mid-week before I probably travel back to see her whenever the next time is. And he was so excited!

Nick Berry (18:55)

Mm-hmm.

You

Yeah, just, mean, the situation is made of things that you can't necessarily control, but you can change from looking at it as a negative into like, now that's their adventure, right? They're going to do this thing. They got a quest.

Caitlin Johnson (19:21)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. They just created a game out of a situation that was a big obstacle. And that's what I feel this gamer's mindset does. It takes a growth mindset to the next level. It's not only are you open to growth and opportunities, but you're going to actively persist and seek them out and get creative.

Nick Berry (19:29)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And it's a muscle. It'll get easier. You'll get better at it.

Caitlin Johnson (19:46)

Yeah, yeah, because he's like, why didn't I think about this? And I was like, look, listen, this is how my brain works. Yeah,

Nick Berry (19:50)

Thank

This is the big leagues.

Okay. let's talk about some stories. maybe some business clients, people that have put this to work,

Caitlin Johnson (19:59)

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. So the first experience I had with all of this was with Marriott International. And that's where the leader asked, can we engage the hearts and minds of our hourly associates and use games to do it? It turns out you can. So in 90 days, we developed the game. Well, we pressed play on the game. It took us about 90 days to build out the strategy and then 90 days to play. And we specifically played during the summer months. And this was strategic.

because it was our worst performing season, so to speak. So within the company, we are familiar with business travelers. And then in the summer months, our families come in and we interact with families differently. They have different expectations of what a good stay at a hotel looks like and should feel like. And so our goal, saw historically lower scores in these summer months. And our goal was to increase

the customer satisfaction year over year from last summer to this summer. And we built out a robust communication plan. We ended up creating leagues where different regions, was regions versus regions, but then within a region, a area vice president might have like 12 to 14 hotels. So then you could compete within your group of hotels. And that helped.

create apples to apples for the most part, right? Because if you think about Mira International, we have many different brands of hotels, big hotels, airport hotels, small hotels. And so it created more of a fair game if you were competing with people in your same market, in your same type of bracket, so to speak. So every week we would celebrate who is the hotel that increased the most compared to last year.

Nick Berry (21:45)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (21:53)

or who has the highest score. So there's two ways to win. So we did that strategically as well. The highest is because we wanted to keep recognizing our high performers. Because if we say who increases the most week over week, our high performers can't do that because we're talking tenths of points that they can move up because they're already high achievers. So who has the highest score would help satisfy our high achievers.

and then who can increase the most would satisfy our mid to low. And then it was kind of a toss up because depending on your week, you might actually crush it. And then another hotel would be like, ah, ah, you know, it's our turn, know, smack talk going on, we're gonna take the win. And so over the course of 12 weeks, we would have, I can't remember how many, but it would be like 26 to 40 winners.

Nick Berry (22:32)

Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (22:46)

So then you'd have a

chance for 15 minutes of fame to get recognized in our newsletters. And we had a chat feature where people were sharing best practices. I'm like, hey, how do you guys handle this? Or we've got to tell you this great story that worked for us for this guest. So while there were competitive elements, there were also collaborative elements as well.

Nick Berry (23:02)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And everybody had a reason to continue playing every week, right? It's like you always were in the mix. You could win or could be recognized.

Caitlin Johnson (23:13)

That's right.

Yes. Yes. And then we also

created little weekly side quests. So share a picture of you and your team engaging with a guest, or what are you doing to prepare for a guest's stay who's celebrating a special moment or something like that. So then for, let's say, those that are just struggling to win the game as we designed it, they could still participate.

in these little side quests to say, hey, we're still doing what we can. We might not be on the leaderboard, but we're still gaining traction and having fun doing it as well.

Nick Berry (23:50)

just thinking about all the ways that this shows up. you mentioned your 130 something or 150 something weeks of working on your book. I'm sure that you, that's not an accidental statistic, right? you're monitoring being intentional

Caitlin Johnson (23:58)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Nick Berry (24:05)

What else could this look like? The fundraiser that people do all the time where they've got the marker and they fill in, we cross this threshold. That's in its simplest form, What are some other examples

Caitlin Johnson (24:11)

yes yeah yeah yeah

at this point in the conversation, when I share successes and I'm all about the how, right? Like help me understand how to do this. And so I shared ways to do it, which many of your listeners may be like, yeah, I'm going to pull that out of this podcast and try it. But let me explain to you another first step.

Nick Berry (24:23)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (24:36)

which is understanding the psychology behind how we play games. And in any great subject, there's gonna be rabbit holes, right? So Nick, I'm gonna talk about like the easiest, lame in terms way that people can take this amazing knowledge I have and apply it to real life. So there's a gentleman, his name is Richard Bartle, who is a British professor and researcher.

and he was studying video games, like first-person games, and identified four ways we play games. So the first are, he called them killers, which I don't love that name. So I like to rename it and say dominators, So as you can imagine, these players are ruthless.

You know, they're going to just annihilate their competition. They're going to get first to the leaderboard. They're going to win first. They're going to be strategic, most efficient in being able to play. So this is the type of person where they would say like, yeah, you don't want to play with them. No friends in card games with that person, right? They're going down. Even if they're playing against their kids, their kids are going down, right? So that is one way some people prefer to play. Super strategic. So the dominator.

Nick Berry (25:33)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (25:46)

Then another player is an achiever. This is the one that I connect with the most, but I will tell you, different environments trigger different motivating player types. Because my dominator comes out, James Clear, Atomic Habits. Have you read that book? Okay, I'm quietly competing against him. Although every podcast I go on, I say this, so James Clear, if you're listening, I love his book.

Nick Berry (26:02)

Mm-hmm.

It's not as quiet anymore, right? It's the thing.

Caitlin Johnson (26:14)

I love his book, it's fantastic, but I want you to buy his and mine when it comes out, because mine will help you sustain the efforts of the atomic habits you're creating. So anyways, keep your eyes open at the end of the year, Okay, so Dominator, I'm quietly competing against James Clear. I'm studying him. How did he get his book into the world and to become like the top purchase book for New Year's resolutions? Okay, Achievers.

Nick Berry (26:31)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (26:39)

The Achiever players love a badge. They love a title. They love an accolade. They love to collect all of that hardware along the journey to achieving. So I connect with this one because I enjoy doing Ironmans for fun. For fun, I enjoy that. It's the challenge of learning and crossing the finish line of the swim, crossing the finish line of the run, crossing the finish line of the bike.

Nick Berry (26:55)

Fine.

Caitlin Johnson (27:06)

all of those components, right? So I love to track and collect all the badges on this darn Garmin watch that I'm wearing, you know, and some of them are silly. Like I got, I exercised on Valentine's Day and got a badge that said, you got a badge for Be My Valentine. And I'm like, okay. But what if it would have been better is if I had known that badge existed.

Because as an achiever, I'd be like, oh, I want that. I'm going to go for a walk or I'm going to go for a run just so can get the badge. But the fact that they gave me the badge without me knowing is surface level and actually defeats the purpose of a badge because I didn't feel any connection to it. So so there's pros and cons like the badge needs to align to something meaningful. That's why the epic mission is so first so important to first identify. Why are we playing?

Nick Berry (27:40)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (27:55)

and then what badges could we incorporate to reinforce play?

All right, so dominators we discussed, leaderboards are really important to a dominator. They want to be at the top. They'll go for badges as well. Points, having the most points would be helpful for a dominator. And so the achiever will do it too, but they just won't be as ruthless in their approach. It's more of a joy in the journey. Okay, two more player types. The next one is an explorer. They understand how to win.

Nick Berry (28:07)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (28:27)

but it's not about winning. It's about exploring all the other elements of the game and what can I break? What squirrel can I chase? What new path can I uncover? And so it's more about curiosity of the play versus winning. So this is where those side quests, the weekly quests at Marriott that I was talking to you about, the explorers will want to do those little mini challenges, because that's fun in the moment.

Nick Berry (28:42)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. But a killer is not going to bother with that unless they're chasing you down to like to get run up the head count, right?

Caitlin Johnson (28:55)

And

Yes, yeah, if there's a side quest that gives you a power up that would help you dominate more, right? Then they'll like, yeah, I'm going to do that because it'll give me that boost that I need.

Nick Berry (29:10)

Yeah.

Caitlin Johnson (29:12)

All right, you know what's interesting is I do find creatives as well as individuals that are diagnosed with ADHD or even feel like they have ADHD tend to be more of that explorer type of a person. And so when you think about trying to achieve success in life, many times I feel like the world is set up for dominators and achievers. Go after the big title, get the VP role, have the higher salary.

But that's not always the name of the game for people who are explorers. It's more of, I want to discover ukulele. I want to understand that. Or I want to practice the guitar. Or, hey, kayaking sounds fun. It's more about the joy of the experience in life versus crushing it to be the top performer.

Nick Berry (30:01)

And it doesn't have to be a straight line to be successful.

Caitlin Johnson (30:04)

No, not at all.

Right, right. Okay, fourth player is Richard Bartle calls it a socializer. I prefer to call it a connector. Socializer, connector, these are game player types that prefer to play with other people. So best example for this one, and this is actually these, they're a little hard to design games for. Chat features are valuable. Team dynamics are valuable.

but it's not about the win for them. It's about how can I help you win? And so I think about Lord of the Rings and Samwise Gamgee. He would be the connector, right? He doesn't need to be Frodo in owning, handling the ring. He's helping Frodo on the adventure to be able to figure that out.

Nick Berry (30:54)

so I know that you're familiar with Vistage I think you've spoken to groups. we had this speaker and I cannot remember much about the topic, but one of the things that they included was about the generational differences in, I think he was really talking about.

Caitlin Johnson (30:57)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Berry (31:07)

But he, he was like, you can tell how to motivate these people by if you know when they were born, you know, what kind of video games they played and, how to motivate them. And he was like, look, if you were born, born in the seventies and eighties, you grew up playing Atari games and so high score, that was your thing. But now high score doesn't matter in these

strategy games that play. they're very different experiences. There is a quest now. So like someone my age, we wanted to keep score. We need to see the scoreboard, but someone 20 years younger than me needs to know like we're going to save the world.

Caitlin Johnson (31:29)

Yeah,

Yes, yes.

that could have some validity to it. Maybe there's even more science behind the four player types as it relates to your age. But I've seen more so depends on the environment you're in and how that motivates you, because I'm not an overly competitive person.

Nick Berry (31:55)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (32:01)

But yet when it comes to James Clear and his book, all of a sudden I'm like, it's on. Let me figure out how you did this. But then there's also a collaborative part of me. So I'm like, hey, James, how would you like to work together and co-author my book maybe, right? To your point, I think though games today might be, and there's definitely a lot of first-person shooter strategic games, but then there's also a lot of World of Warcraft, super popular and collaborative. You've got to build a team.

Nick Berry (32:06)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (32:29)

to be able to accomplish certain objectives, right? And it can take a whole lot of time to be able to find the right characters with the right skill set to win the quest.

Nick Berry (32:32)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

hearing you talk about your perspective on this, with James Clear and how it applies in different areas, you're probably, like world-class at this point of being able to take any situation and kind of apply whichever framework is going to serve the, the mission best. Right? So whether it's.

Caitlin Johnson (32:59)

Yeah.

Nick Berry (33:00)

working with James Clear, whether James Clear knows about it. none of that really matters. It's whatever helps you reach your potential in that area. And if James Clear is involved, it's not a zero sum game, right? It's, what serves us best.

Caitlin Johnson (33:02)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Well, and I think what you're also touching on too here is that it's not all about competition. There are elements about collaboration, because I would then argue a dominator and achiever may lean more towards competition. But the explorers and the collaborators will lean more towards collaboration. And so in developing a game that's going to attract all four game player types,

you have to have both competitive and collaborative elements to it. And so when you think therefore, it's fun to be competitive, but it's also so cool and amazing when you collaborate with somebody and magic happens when your mind and my mind come together and we're solving problems in ways that we would have never been able to by ourselves.

Nick Berry (33:46)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, it's when you can unlock that whole being greater than some of the parts, right? That's a feeling like nothing else. Do you think that everyone feels that? Or are there some, like the lone wolves that are just, it's just not going to click for them?

Caitlin Johnson (34:07)

Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

You know, if that's true, then that I feel needs to be part of my mission to help people identify how to create those epic partnerships because it is next level. You know, I think about the partnerships I've had where magic literally happens and I'm a very rational, I have a freaking process on how to play games, okay? And I help people with this process.

Nick Berry (34:31)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (34:45)

I should have been an engineer maybe in some aspect of my life, but I have a master's degree in communication. So there are creative elements to me, but I'm very rational. I partner so well with ideators, visionaries, big picture people. You it's almost like the CEO and I'm the COO. And when we come together, it's just absolutely epic.

Nick Berry (35:08)

Yeah. Are

you familiar with the, Lencioni only he's a working genius. So do you think it kind of fits in that framework where it's like, if someone has this big picture, like you can see whether how to make it work.

Caitlin Johnson (35:13)

Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.

Then that's those when I look at the leaders who I have worked with to build games within organizations, they and I usually use Gallup Strengths Finders. And so they usually have ID and so funny, I can start to pick it out now. And as I listen to leaders, I was like, Hey, do you know your your strengths by any chance? They're like, Yeah, I do. Let me pull it up. Like, do you have ideator futuristic in your top five? They're like, Yeah, how'd you know? It's like,

We're meant to work together. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. So let me tell you another story about how I use this framework. So in addition to being able to use it to help organizations and teams and individuals achieve goals, I actually also use it strategically in designing learning journeys within organizations.

Nick Berry (35:53)

I think that's awesome.

Caitlin Johnson (36:14)

And so I have worked with organizations to build out essentially a game strategy. So think about video games. What is the epic mission? What does the journey look like? What are the quests that people need to accomplish? What are some of the level up skill sets people need to be successful within their role and have gone from recruiting to retirement? Thinking about the key check.

points along the way that an employee would come across and in their job, what does success look like? What could success look like at different key checkpoints? And do we have the right training to be able to support them in growth? His research is coming out with the fact that millennials in Gen Z will move on from their job in two years if they don't experience an opportunity to grow either because of a

a ladder up rung that they can promote into, or if they're not feeling growth within their role, they'll move on to go find the growth. And in today's talent market, we cannot afford to lose amazing talent. So this strategy helps organizations build internal pipelines and paths to success as people progress forward so that they can take ownership.

Nick Berry (37:17)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (37:34)

of their career and proactively go after the tools and resources that an organization has to help them grow or have conversations with their leaders on what growth could look like.

Nick Berry (37:36)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Are these typically organizations that don't have that pathway at all? Or are they, maybe they have it and they haven't figured out how did it like, we were not really, it's not functional. We're not moving anyone forward.

Caitlin Johnson (37:51)

Yes.

Yeah, it's the organization I specifically worked for was looking to develop growth mindset within their folks to be proactive, to really take care of the customer, create raving fans of their customers and wanting to instill this is the behaviors that we're looking for to be successful in this organization and to reinforce it by having these succession plans.

that we're clear to be able to show people, here's what growth potential looks like for you, and we're invested in you, and here's how. To be able to show people, like, once we hire you, we're not just gonna let you figure it out on your own, we're going to support you through that journey.

Nick Berry (38:32)

Thanks.

Caitlin Johnson (38:39)

their ultimate goal was to build individual learning plans. And so to do that, we set the structure up so that they could have the resources, the training, the conversations, the performance review conversation templates.

We even redid job descriptions to make sure we were hiring for the right people to match the values, the growth mindset and things along those lines.

Nick Berry (39:04)

Do you use any type of personality assessments,

Caitlin Johnson (39:08)

My favorite is Gallup Strengths Finder. There's so many though, and it's bit of a teach their own based on the organization. If they already have something in place, then I usually just find out what is it and how are you using it so we can incorporate it. Or I make a recommendation to change it because sometimes there's assessments that organizations use and then they don't really pull through on it. you know, another great one is Predictive Index. Predictive Index is really fun because of the the

Nick Berry (39:31)

Yeah.

Caitlin Johnson (39:35)

character, the avatar you kind of get. And so how do you understand that that's how those team members play and how do you lean on those strengths to be able to help them contribute?

Nick Berry (39:48)

So I'm, someone listening who is maybe a business owner. They're like, they have that development mindset either for themselves or their businesses. It's like, I know I've got a lot to learn. I've got, there's a lot of space between where I'm at and my potential. I'm always doing something.

But it feels like I'm just kind of doing something sometimes. How can I put something like this to work for me? What does it look like?

Caitlin Johnson (40:11)

Yes.

what is one thing I can focus on this quarter that I can achieve? For me, in my epic mission of getting this word out there more, it's I need to learn sales. So for the next 90 days, and I'm not going to be perfect at it, but I'm going to make traction on it. And that's the value.

Nick Berry (40:25)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

You know, that's your

overarching priority, right? Like that's the thing. So what you're, you're describing is it's very similar strategic planning, just planning. Like you figure out what's the, what's the vision here. And then we start chunking down from there.

Caitlin Johnson (40:35)

Yeah, absolutely.

Yes!

Mm-hmm.

Nick Berry (40:48)

You have an idea of where you need to be at the end of this year. So now you're, you're reverse engineering from there. Like, what do I need to get done by the end of this quarter to make sure that I'm going to be able to hit those end of year goals. Then you repeat that process. Right. So even your.

Caitlin Johnson (40:51)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm?

That's right. Yes. So every quarter it's,

how do I want to level up this quarter? What does that look like?

Nick Berry (41:07)

Yeah.

Caitlin Johnson (41:08)

Right. And that's where the streak comes in. Right. So I have a focus of sales. So now the question is, what am going to do on a daily or weekly basis to help me with that? So I've, I've got a really interesting book that I'm reading right now called eat their lunch. It is a pretty interesting book around essentially stealing your competition, clients from your competition. Right. So there is a bit of a competitive nature to it, but so far it's not in a,

Dog Eat Dog World, even though the title is Eat Their Lunch, right? It's very strategic advisor standpoint, like that's the differentiator versus your product and your services. So right now it's how much of this book can I get done in the next 90 days and put the activities the book has in place?

Nick Berry (41:51)

Have you read Great Game of Business? So that.

Caitlin Johnson (41:54)

That's

essentially what I do, but with a video game edge. The difference with great game of business is that they focus on the game as the financials, which doesn't always translate to frontline leaders. In that case, it did because it was an employee-owned organization. So they had an invested interest in the bottom line in the financials. So going back to the example with Marriott, we tried

Nick Berry (41:58)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (42:20)

driving revenue and finances as the game. But it does not translate to housekeepers, engineers, behind the scenes employees, because how are they gonna impact that? The only way they can win is to give up hours. And so that you don't pay them. That's the only way they can truly help revenue. And so after trying that and realizing it does not engage the hearts and minds of our teams.

Nick Berry (42:33)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (42:46)

we realize going after customer service is better because you can either directly support customer service or indirectly in the sense of finance and HR, they can support the people who are supporting the guests. So are there trainings that finance and HR can go back and revisit because, we're noticing guest complaints in our credit card and debit card transactions. Let me retrain you on that so that you can have better customer service.

Nick Berry (43:01)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

think that Greg gave him a business when I started, it was really about open book financials. And they figured out that's just not capturing everybody's attention for very long. But we can expand it to include more leading activities, not just the outcomes. And it works conceptually.

Caitlin Johnson (43:20)

Yes.

Yes, that's right.

Nick Berry (43:35)

You just got to find the right activity to attach it to the right behavior.

Caitlin Johnson (43:39)

That's right. Now a lot of leaders get nervous when they're first implementing this because they're like, well, how do I know if I'm designing the right game? But to me, that's part of the fun. It's part of the fun because you don't fully know. You're going to make your best guess and you're going to play it for 90 days. And I will guarantee you will see One, you will see the results increase. You will see clarity from the team. three, so one results increase. Two, clarity with the team.

Three, you're gonna identify was that the right measure or not. You will make traction happen, but then when you're maniacally focusing on one part of the business, you'll either realize that's the right part or the light will be shown on the part that really needs the focus. And so the other best part about this is, fine, we did it for 90 days. That was our intent. Now that we realized the light is shining over here and that's the problem area.

Nick Berry (44:21)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Johnson (44:32)

in the next 90 days, we're going to switch up our game. We're going after that. And so it allows for agility and dynamic edits of the business to happen. And you need that in order to be the best value for your customers or whatever the case may be.

Nick Berry (44:43)

Mm-hmm.

is it all right to start, they don't have to start with making a game out of the most important thing. You could take something that's maybe a little less critical, but still valuable, worthwhile, and use that to get started, get one under your belt. If you're concerned about like maybe

getting it right the first time.

Caitlin Johnson (45:10)

Yeah, you know, you don't have to play it safe. You can go aggressive. But what I would say is create a winnable game. So if you feel like your end goal is too aggressive back off a bit because you want the team to win, it's always better to create a stretch goal versus feel defeated by the end of that game. So go after something that you're you're realizing this will be a bit of a stretch. But if we all hyper focus on this, we should be able to make traction.

And it's not all about the win. It's about the progress along the way towards the win, right? So addressing with the team, and I'm completely upfront, hey, we're all taking a guess that this is what we need to do. This is what our guests or our customers are saying we should focus here. So we're going to start there and see where it goes. And then as a leader, being open and vulnerable enough to say, and I want your feedback as we're going through this.

because Nick, the front line has the best view of what needs to happen. So allowing open doors for them to say, hey, I think we're playing the wrong game. And then asking the curious questions of, tell me more. Where do you think we're missing the beat? Do you think we should switch strategies now or wait until the next 90 days? What I would say is don't change any strategies until at least three weeks, because it takes three weeks.

If you've never done this before, it takes three weeks to get into routine. It also to the front line feels a bit micromanaging in the beginning because you're like, what do mean we're tracking this? What do you mean I have to report out on what I'm doing to drive guest satisfaction? That's weird. Get off my back. But when you say, no, no, like we're doing this together as a team, we're going to really focus and double down on this. It takes 21 days to get it into routine. It's not a habit yet.

It's routine. And then people start to realize, there's a method behind this madness. Okay. And then you start seeing the buy-in.

Nick Berry (47:08)

Mm-hmm.

And that's the thing right there, right? It's like that you've got to get buy in.

Caitlin Johnson (47:12)

Mmm.

Yes.

Nick Berry (47:15)

any other tips or rules of thumb for trying to get this off the ground?

Caitlin Johnson (47:20)

Yeah, going back to timeframe, I would definitely say, you know, the 21 days, be persistent, be consistent, get that routine established and then stick with it for 90 days and revisit your strategy. Anything after 90 days, and I've had some leaders say, hey, we saw great traction. Can we double down and go for double X points, right? In the next 90 days. I'm cautious with that because what you're doing with this game is you're asking for hyper focus from your team.

Nick Berry (47:34)

Thanks.

Caitlin Johnson (47:49)

and you're elevating the expectations of play, so to speak. So if you keep playing at that level, that's no longer a game. That's just business as usual.

Nick Berry (47:59)

Okay. So you're saying to give almost like give an off season, don't just change the game and play another game, like take time off from the game.

Caitlin Johnson (48:01)

So.

Yes. Yeah.

Yes, give some time off, a couple of to reevaluate, kind of do a retrospective and celebrate. So much about games. Think about it. You get the confetti when you win, right? You get the gold star or whatever the case may be. Find ways to celebrate. Oh, the other piece of information is every game that I've built has never had a financial reward. It's always word of mouth.

Nick Berry (48:32)

What kind of rewards do you use?

Caitlin Johnson (48:35)

interesting badges, things that people are just thrilled about, rare badges that would come from only the president of the organization. And then they're like, my gosh, I'm recognized for something from the president. So having just those fun ways of engaging. Now I would add just a slight caveat. At Marriott, the general managers, if they reach their goals of guest satisfaction would get a bonus.

But that was already identified as part of their annual performance review. It wasn't part of the game. It was just a byproduct win of the game.

Nick Berry (49:13)

The game was built

in alignment with an existing goal.

Caitlin Johnson (49:16)

Yes.

Nick Berry (49:17)

it makes sense. We're all trying to figure out how to do more of the things that take us where we're trying to get and do less of the things that don't. And we can all use whatever support in doing that, or sometimes motivation.

Caitlin Johnson (49:27)

Mm-hmm.

100 % behind motivation. mean, games, we're motivated to play games intrinsically. So it increases engagement when you develop the right game. I will also say there's arguments that all of this gamification stuff is manipulative. You could argue that it is if your intent is not in the right place. If your intent in your epic mission

drives customer satisfaction, drives the value as to why your business is in business, then what you're doing is you're creating clarity for your team. You're creating opportunities for your team to contribute in ways that they see value. More and more, Millennial and Gen Z, they want to be part of something bigger than themselves. They want to work for an organization that has a purposeful drive.

And so this game can reinforce that because it provides the clarity and it provides a path to be able to be successful.

Nick Berry (50:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay. What about, I know there's, we talked about your book, which should be out this year. And do you have a title already?

Caitlin Johnson (50:36)

Yes, fingers crossed.

So yeah, you know what? I'm actually thinking of crowdsourcing once I get to beta readers. So if anyone's interested in beta reading, reach out to me on LinkedIn. So the book is going to be about gamifying your goals and it's a choose your own adventure. So based on those four game player types, you'll select your avatar and basically follow that character through the book to complete the different challenges to help you gamify your goals and come up with your quests and your streaks.

And it dawned on me that I was writing the book in a linear fashion based on, because the book is written based on my true real life experience. I gamified everything. It is a way of being. And so I was writing the flow in the way that I gamified it and made sense of the framework. And then I realized, wait, hold on a second. That's me as an achiever.

Nick Berry (51:19)

It's a way of being.

Caitlin Johnson (51:34)

A connector or an explorer may not want the badge like I want the badge. And they may want to collaborate with people to have their win in life. And so that's where it dawned on me. This needs to be a choose your own adventure based on the motivating, intrinsic motivating styles that we're each composed of when it comes to achieving epic things in life. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Berry (51:58)

I like that. That's a neat angle.

Caitlin Johnson (52:01)

So I was almost done and ready to publish and then I realized, hold on. I'm literally gamifying the experience.

Nick Berry (52:10)

I'll definitely make sure that I know when it's coming out and we can share it with everybody.

Caitlin Johnson (52:15)

Yeah, that would be great.

Nick Berry (52:17)

Caitlin, this has been fantastic. Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. I love the topic. I'm looking forward to following along and I want to get a copy of the book, make sure that I read that and check out the community and support you however I can.

Caitlin Johnson (52:25)

Yes.

Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me. I hope your listeners enjoyed this innovative approach to getting it done, accomplishing the game of life.

Nick Berry (52:38)

to get